Episode 243 — See The World Through THEIR Eyes
Guest: Dr. Pejman Katiraei • Date: February 13, 2025
Episode Overview
Dr. Pejman Katiraei returns to share his unique perspective as both a leading integrative pediatrician and someone who personally overcame anxiety, ADHD, and depression. In this episode, he helps parents understand what their children with learning and behavioral challenges are truly experiencing—so they can better support their healing. The secret this week is… See The World Through THEIR Eyes
About Dr. Pejman Katiraei
Dr. Pejman Katiraei (Dr. K) is a board-certified pediatrician who completed his undergraduate at UCLA and then obtained his osteopathic medical degree at Western University. He completed a pediatric residency at Loma Linda University, where he stayed on as a teaching faculty for over 4 years. He has also completed two fellowships in integrative medicine and has over a decade of clinical experience helping children with severe learning and behavioral challenges. Dr. K is now in private practice in Santa Monica, where he focuses on helping children with mold-related illnesses, autism, and other mental health challenges.
You’ll Discover
The Treatment That’s Helped Dr. K. The Most (5:31)
The Impact Of An Overactive Immune System (15:13)
The Two Most Common Presentations of Mold (27:16)
Why Your Child Is More Susceptible To Harm (33:54)
One Reason Why Kids Are So Rigid (38:22)
Referenced in This Episode
Autism Parenting Secrets - Episode 208: Brain Allergies Are In the Way with Dr. Pejman Katiraei
Substack: On A Mission To Help A Million Kids Heal From Autism by Dr. Pejman Katiraei
Autism Parenting Secrets - Episode 240:Regulate Brain Mast Cells with Dr. Theo Theoharides
Full Transcript
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:00:00]:
These children aren't trying to be difficult. These children aren't trying to resist. I mean, sometimes they're oppositional. But the experience of the world is fundamentally different. And if you were to kind of rephrase autism, autism is basically one's experience of the world is fundamentally different than others, right? We say, well, that's part of neurodiversity and neurodivergence. But there is something about being wired differently, which I think is the gift, you know, that all of these individuals have. But when the neurophysiology is altered because of the inflammation and toxicity, I mean, I don't know why anyone would consider that a positive thing, right? And I think the beauty of all of this is as we work to change that immune response in the toxicity and the mitochondrial issues and so forth, like a whole new being can show up in the world with which I tell all the families, like that being is your true child. Want to truly be the best parent you can be and help your child thrive after their autism diagnosis? This podcast is for all in parents like you who know more is possible for your child.
Len Arcuri [00:01:10]:
With each episode, we reveal a secret that empowers you to be the parent your child needs now, saving you time, energy and money and helping you focus on what truly matters most, your child.
Cass Arcuri [00:01:21]:
I'm Cass.
Len Arcuri [00:01:22]:
And I'm Len.
Cass Arcuri [00:01:23]:
Welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets.
Len Arcuri [00:01:37]:
Hello and welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets. It's Len, and I want to first of all, start by thanking you, the listener. This podcast recently hit a huge milestone. It now ranks in the top 1% of global podcast rankings. And, and that's all thanks to you. So if this show does serve you, please consider leaving a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It's the best way to show your support and more importantly, to help other parents find the show. And today, I am so excited to welcome back Dr.
Len Arcuri [00:02:08]:
Pejman Kathari, or Dr. K as he is known. He's appeared on this podcast twice before, episode number 95 and episode 208. And Dr. K, by way of background, is a Functional Medicine MAPs practitioner, board certified pediatrician, and expert in integrative medicine. As someone who's on the spectrum himself, he offers unique insights to help kids with behavioral challenges. Dr. K runs a private practice in Santa Monica and has created Holistic Minds, a resource for parents to uncover the root causes of their child's challenges.
Len Arcuri [00:02:45]:
So get ready for practical strategies and very fresh perspectives. The secret this week is see the world through their eyes. Welcome, Dr. K. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:02:56]:
And it's really a pleasure to be here again.
Len Arcuri [00:02:59]:
Wonderful. Well, your voice is super powerful. I can't tell you the positive feedback we've gotten from listeners who really have been so appreciative of your insights and motivated to truly help their child. And I just think you're really passionate, passionate guiding voice for families. So this topic, the secret I teed up, you know, is, is a different one. And again, I think I'm going to pass the mic to you because I know you've been very active lately. You have a substack, you're putting a lot of information out there, and I know you've gone through your own continual growth. And so I'll, I'll hand it to you to just share with our listeners some of the more recent insights that you've had.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:03:44]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if I ever even realized that I was that much on the spectrum until I essentially did a reset of my system. And you know those times where you, you have taken a beautiful walk and there's just this most spectacular sunset. And you look at the sunset and it's not just your brain registers it as, oh, this is pretty, but there's like this emotional, like, joy that comes from that, right? Or the times you've probably cuddled with Rye and you look in his eyes and you just get this overwhelming sensation of joy and love. But it's not a mental construct of love. It's an emotional thing, right?
Len Arcuri [00:04:35]:
Yeah, absolutely. Feeling at peace.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:04:38]:
Now, what if those emotions never actually occurred for you? Meaning you looked at the sunrise, the sunset, and you knew it was a beautiful sunset, so you told yourself it's a beautiful sunset. But that joy, that sense of beauty, that emotional chemical experience of beauty never registered for you. Or the times that you have looked in Rye, cuddled with him or whomever with their children. But, you know, you love, I mean, all parents love their children, right? It goes without saying, but what if that emotion, that oxytocin, that just sense of pure love that flows in your heart, that emotional chemical experience wasn't registering? And you know what was really eye opening for me as I've gone through my transformation. And you know, half of it is because of the children I serve, where I've done, you know, I've given them certain treatments and all of a sudden they've evolved in ways that were frankly, surprising to me and the families. And, you know, I looked at like, maybe I should try that for myself. And really the most impactful and significant treatment that I have ever Tried for myself was intraconazole. And I've tried just about Everything from methyl B12 injections, high doses of folate.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:06:03]:
I mean, you name it, I've tried it. And after trying was like, my nervous system and brain completely changed. And there were multiple times early on that I would walk our dog like I have for a year and change since we've had him. And all of a sudden, I looked at the sunset, and it occurred to me, oh, my God, this is what other people experience. Because I could actually sense that sense of beauty. It wasn't just a mental construct of beauty. There was one night, I will never forget it, also about six, seven months ago, where I was cuddling with, you know, back then, he was four years old. Now he's five.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:06:53]:
And I was cuddling with our little guy, Lev. And just like I do every other night, I cuddle with them. I give him massage, you know, do stuff, tuck him into bed. And I was laying there next to him, and I had this overwhelming emotional experience of love for this little boy. And I, I've always loved my son. I, I, I love my daughter. I love my wife. Like, those things haven't changed, but the way that I was experiencing that love and the emotional experience, and I attribute it to, really, oxytocin and serotonin finally working in my brain for the first time in as long as I can remember, if not my entire life.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:07:33]:
And I started crying. Like, you didn't see it, but I started crying because just the joy that I could feel, that I could sense what was something that was so new to me, that it was like a saltwater fish going into fresh water, and all of a sudden it's like, wow, things are not so salty. And along with that, I've started noticing dopamine has started working differently. So I do things, and now I feel this little sense of reward. So, Right. Dopamine kind of creates that reward experience. So you do something, you accomplish something. Before you.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:08:14]:
It was just a flat line like, yeah, so what? I did it. Big deal. Here's what I realized. And if you were to distill down kind of like how I came to start seeing that this domain of asd. And we know that children with autism do have abnormalities in oxytocin. Right. That's one of the fundamental kind of benchmarks, if you want to say right there, a lot more obviously. But what I came to realize was that I had essentially created an entire mental construct of my world of, well, my wife is amazing, and she's kind and She's.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:08:51]:
And she is all of these things, and I've always loved her. But what I came to realize is I never knew what love emotionally, chemically felt like because my. My brain was actually physiologically incapable of registering that emotion. And there were many times my wife, who happens to be one of the most social human beings in the world, and it's kind of like, talk about, you know, marrying someone who is kind of on the other end of the spectrum, you know, just the most social, loving human being. And she would go to me, she's like, you're a robot. I'm like, what are you talking about? Because I would say, well, baby, I love you. And she's like, you don't mean it. I'm like, what do you mean? I mean it.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:09:36]:
I love you. She's like, no, you don't mean it. And what she was trying to communicate to me without even knowing that she was communicating this was. I didn't have the emotional experience of love. So when I was articulating I love you, there wasn't that emotional feeling behind it. And one of the things that's been so fascinating is as I have changed my physiology, and I attribute this all to finally figuring out how to really calm down my immune system. Because I believe that one of the fundamental things that this pharmaceutical does is it just grounds the immune system in a way that, as far as I know, no other compound, natural or not, is capable to do. And it was within probably two or three weeks of taking it that, like, the entire world suddenly changed for me.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:10:32]:
And, you know, this is in line with what I see in a lot of the children where, you know, early on, when I started using this, and this is about a year and change ago, I had. I remember one child in particular that also on the spectrum, just kind of was aloof in his own world, you know, doing his thing, happy guy. Like, he wasn't necessarily aggravated or anything. You know, happy, relatively high functioning guy, but was disconnected. And there was one moment where, you know, when the mom shared this with me, both she and I started crying together. She. She was crying because her younger son was, you know, being bratty and doing things that was really frustrating to her. And then the older son, who's on the spectrum, came and started giving her neck rub.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:11:23]:
And she looked, she's like, buddy, what are you doing? And he's like, well, Mommy, I see you're upset. And I know when I'm upset, you give me neck rubs. And since you were upset, I wanted to give you a neck Rub. And in that moment, she's like, oh, my God. But it was the same thing. He started finally experiencing these emotional. These chemical. These physiological, heartfelt things.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:11:54]:
And for me, part of what has really been a shift is one, my nervous system is significantly calmer. The things that would irritate me, aggravate me, the things that I would perceive incorrectly as threat responses. I remember looking back about a year and a half ago, my brain was constantly perceiving everything to be a threat. What if this happens? What if that happens? What if this employee leaves? What if that patient does this? What if. And it was this constant barrage of fear and anxiety and just being trapped in my own head. And as my immune system calmed down, the thing that was so staggering to me was without, like, I. I've always meditated, you know, a few minutes, I try, whatever, but all of a sudden, like, I wasn't meditating and my mind was calm. I.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:12:49]:
I could. I wasn't constantly being. Feeling like the world was a threat. And through that, my ability to also perceive the social dynamics of others. Where, you know, before my wife would be like, did you notice that so. And so did this or said this? I'm like, no. And she's like, yeah, well, they did. And that's what it means.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:13:11]:
I'm like, oh, you know, and I was missing social cues all the time. I was missing social cues all the time. Why? Because I was wrapped in my own head and unable to see or step outside of myself. And as that happened, all of a sudden I started looking and realizing, oh, my God, yeah, these people do say these things and do do these things. And, oh, yeah, that does mean this. But it's at the age of 48, like, opening my eyes to the world and suddenly seeing these things, and it's been sudden. It wasn't like, a gradual thing has brought me to a place where, you know, I look at these kids and, you know, I. I feel like I see you.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:13:57]:
I know exactly where you are. I know exactly what you're feeling. And obviously there's variations, right? But, I mean, part of why I was so grateful to be here is to share this. And, you know, if this conversation can help any of the families out there just look at their children and understand them and be able to see through their eyes and, I mean, what a gift that would be for the world, right?
Len Arcuri [00:14:24]:
No doubt. No doubt. And it's all about perspective. And so much of what our child might be exhibiting, it's so easy for us to judge it in some way, shape or form as parents. But the reality is the world does look very differently through your child's eyes. And while every child is so unique and different, and there's a whole history that's unique to that child, I think what you've seized on is, and I'd love for you to elaborate more, is this sense of the fact that the child might just really not be feeling safe in their own skin for whatever reason. There's a lack of safety that results in so many behaviors and so much that they might not tune into. And you mentioned the idea of an immune system.
Len Arcuri [00:15:13]:
So can you talk about, like, it's a chicken and the egg type of thing? Where is there a lack of safety that's. That's felt by the child because of an overactive immune system? Or is it the other way around?
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:15:25]:
No, I mean, it could be the other way around. And obviously we know that trauma and high levels of stress can definitely trigger gut inflammation, immune response, et cetera. But I actually just listened to the podcast you had with Dr. Theo Horaidis, who I think is a gift to our world and probably one of the most respected researchers, at least in my book. And it was actually Dr. Theo Horati that started helping me understand first what was going on with the patient. So one of one of his publications, he explicitly talks about how mast cell, and I think by extension the microglia, right? So the cells, the immune cells of our brain, change our perception of what is considered fear. So they change our threat response, and that is by changing the limbic system and the amygdala and the wiring within the amygdala.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:16:21]:
So literally, what happens is when the immune system is activated, the brain's ability to perceive what is a threat or not gets distorted. And all of a sudden, the brain starts picking every little signal up in the world as a possible threat, even though it's not. And through that, it's. It's this irrational, I would say almost subconscious, because it's not like all of this is coming up from the limbic system, right? The primitive brain, if you want to say, is pinging the higher levels of the brain, like, hey, this is the threat. That's a threat. Oh, my God, this is a threat. Right? And what do we see in a lot of these kids that are on the spectrum? Like, they're. They're overwhelmed by the world, right? And sometimes it's overt and they're, like, actually freaking out, but other times they're not freaking out, but they're not calm.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:17:14]:
They're not comfortable in the world is probably the best way for me to put it. And one of the things. And we can talk about the other things is, is specifically tied to this unique immune activation that actually changes the physiology and neurophysiology of our brain.
Len Arcuri [00:17:33]:
Yeah, no, let's continue down that road. And you mentioned intraconazole. So can you explain that specifically is a medication? And so can you explain how that helps? What's the mechanism that from your standpoint, you're finding that to be something that's a very significant data point in your own experience.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:17:56]:
Yeah. So itraconazole, which Dr. Sid Baker and Dr. William Shaw published case report on many years ago, where they found this full resolution of autism within, I think it was a six or nine month period of time. They did huge doses, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but that publication caught my eye. And then there's one of my mentors, Dr. Andrew Campbell, who's a huge fan of Itraconazole, and he's of the belief like, everyone who's ever been exposed to mold at any point in time should get Itraconazole. So.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:18:30]:
But there was a lot of these kind of chatters and reports out there. And one of the things that I kept seeing, and I work with a lot of kids who have been impacted by mold, specifically those who have developed asd, was just they had, you know, gut issues and allergies. And the more I started going into the world of like, well, how does mold do that and how did the fungi do that? I got to a place where I said to myself, my God, well, the fungus in our gut. And when you're exposed to mold, not only does candida change, so it kind of morphs into this evil monster, but Aspergillus, which is a mold from the environment, could theoretically get in our gut and set up shop and basically start colonizing. And the theory that, you know, I started entertaining and watching all these smart people talk about Itraconazole, which is an antifungal, was, well, gosh, maybe the fungi are triggering the immune system, which is then causing all of these weird neuropsychological issues. And so I started treating some of these kids with this antifungal. And not to say that anyone, everyone should jump into using it first. Not to say it's something to be used lightly.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:19:44]:
Like, you have to really know what you're doing, because if the kid is not ready for it, it's like awful disaster. They. They go off the cliff, kind of aggression, irritability. But when you know how to use it and you time it properly and the child is ready for it. The, the changes that I had seen in the kids were staggering. I, I've had I don't know how many now kids with pans and pandas and you know, obviously some of them cross over into the spectrum world where two to three weeks later, the aggression, the OCD, the anxiety literally were improved by sometimes 70, 80% to the point where I would look at the parents, we're like, what the heck? A lot of kids also on the spectrum, their fear, their sensory sensitivities, their sleep issues, all also significantly calmed down. Some of them took longer, two to three months. But then we also had somewhere literally within a few weeks of taking the medication, everything calmed down.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:20:46]:
And that's when I started really questioning what the heck this medication is doing. Because antifungals can work fairly quickly. I've never seen them work as quickly as that. Which had me really start asking, well, what else is this thing doing? And that's where if you start looking at the azol, so there's this entire family, some of them are anti parasitic and they're actually looking at some of these antiparasitics for cancer treatments. So these azoles happen to have all kinds of interesting immune modulating properties. So there's one or two studies looking at itraconazole specifically for inflammatory bowel disease. They're looking at systemic properties of this in terms of modulating like TNF alpha, a lot of these more keys, key immune cascade regulators. One of the things that I believe in, looking at the kids and taking it myself is that it probably, even though we don't have data to support this, but my observation is that it probably is one of the most potent and effective mast cell and or microglial inhibitors.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:22:04]:
Because like in seeing the kids and then I, I've kept playing with it like I've stopped it and then I, I could feel like things slipping away and my, my anxiety kind of ticking back up. And then literally I would take like two doses in within four or five days, like everything was just calm. But it really highlights how little we know about these medications and, and pharmaceuticals, but also how much promise they have as more research comes out and we have a better understanding of what these drugs are actually doing.
Len Arcuri [00:22:40]:
Great. Well, thank you for that more expansive take on how it's helping and what it's doing. And I know many of the listeners probably are, like myself and Cass, where we'd rather not use medications and go down more natural approaches and do all that first, which has been pretty much our strategy. But there is a time and a place for medications. Again, if you're working with a practitioner who's skilled and really can do this in a fruitful way. So I think with that. And you talked about mold, and that was the first episode you did on our podcast. Is intracontosol something that really can possibly have this benefit? Only if mold is something that is an issue for the child? Or is it just that if you do lab testing and you confirm that mold is an issue, that then this is where this comes in? Or if someone doesn't have a mold issue, could this still be something that helped?
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:23:40]:
It's a really good question. I don't know the answer to that. I would presume that it is most effective in those kids who have been affected. But I think one of the things that we don't appreciate is what extent of the population has been exposed. I'll give you an example in looking back, because then, you know, after I took the medication and I started feeling these things, you know, what went through my mind is like, when the hell was I exposed to mold? Because we haven't had mold at least in the last 10 years. So, like, what was going on? When did this happen? And when I look back, we immigrated to the US When I was six, and I was a very happy go, lucky kid, you know, lots of friends. Like, I barely spoke a lick of English, but, like, had made multiple friends. I was going on my bike, like, hanging out with my friends in a neighborhood.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:24:41]:
And then we moved into this home when I was probably nine years old. And I remember it was a home that had actually gone into foreclosure because the prior owner had committed suicide. And I remember it was a very dark, dingy, kind of musty home that as new immigrants were like, wow, we got a deal on this, right? We have a home. And it was within a year or two moving into that home that I essentially went dark, and I became highly anxious. I was suicidal. I had one friend for pretty much all of middle school and one or two friends for high school, and my entire world changed. So it's one of those things where. Has everyone been exposed to mold? No.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:25:29]:
But is every case of autism related to mold? Of course not. Right. That would be way gross overstatement. But I think when we look at the prevalence of mold and how many people have been exposed, it's probably higher than we realize. And as people start testing and finding it, then if they find signs of it, then it could be something useful, right?
Len Arcuri [00:25:56]:
Yeah. No, I think in mold pretty much is ubiquitous. Right. It's like every house is going to have something everyone's exposed in some way. But again, for some people and some kids, I think what you've learned with seeing, I don't know, hundreds, how many patients you've seen over the years, but it's a large data set. You know, the percent of people who are. Who mold is having a significant impact on what's happening to them is not insignificant. Right.
Len Arcuri [00:26:24]:
It may not be all cases, but it's substantial. And that's why I think when I talk about you with other clients that I have and with other listeners and other parents, you know, a lot of times you get identified as the mold doctor. Right. Like, you help people with mold. I'm like, no, he's not a mold doctor. He's. This is just, you know, he's a maps doctor who just happens to have noticed that this is a much bigger issue for a lot of kids. And so that's where I think you've devoted a lot of time and attention to figuring out, how do you test for it? Because there's a lot of tests out there, and, you know, some are more reliable than others.
Len Arcuri [00:26:59]:
You know, how do you test for it? And then, more importantly, what can you do about it? Which is where I know you've really devoted a lot of time and attention over the last few years.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:27:08]:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it wasn't anything that I initially wanted to do. It was something that just became a necessity. There's two presentations that really come up. One is the child was born in a home with mold. So those are. There's typically a pattern. The baby starts off very colicky.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:27:29]:
Right. The babies that just cry for hours at a time, you rock them, you bounce them, you do all of these things to calm them down. And that goes on for a while. Normal colic typically lasts until two months. These are the babies that have colic until, like, four months, six months. They go on to usually develop some reflux. They start developing some eczema. Not all, but it kind of.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:27:48]:
There's a pattern. A lot of these kids start developing food intolerances. And this is all the mold disrupting their immune system. It's the mold jacking up their nervous system. So it's constantly on threat. It cannot calm down. Colic, it disrupts the gut. So you get reflux, you get food intolerances.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:28:05]:
You start getting this atopic kind of allergy presentation. And then, because these mold toxins also Disrupt the mitochondria. You can get some delays, right? So they're a little later to walk, they're a little later to crawl. Instead of crawling at six months, they crawl at nine months. Instead of walking at 12 months, they walk at, like, 15 months. So you've got all of these things. And we call these kids having a regressive episode. And there is generally a moment where their nervous system seems to go offline.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:28:36]:
But when you look, these kids who were exposed to mold early on in the first year or so of life, never had a totally normal, perfect presentation. There were little things that no one ever attributed to something that could then lead to the autistic manifestation. The other presentation is the kid. And then early on, these kids also tend to have ear infections. They may have croup, they may end up in the hospital. Their immune system is just acting wonky to begin with. There's another camp where the kids are doing fairly well, pretty healthy early on, everything looks to be good. No issues, no ear infections growing.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:29:16]:
Well, happy go lucky kids sleeping. But then at three years, four years, five years, something weird happens, and then they start regressing. And in these cases, what I have found more often than I would care to, is the family moved somewhere, so they moved from one home to another, or the child started daycare, or sometimes, sadly, a school. And now weird things start happening where the kid who didn't have ear infections now is getting ear infections. The kid who didn't have asthma now has asthma, has allergies, and they're starting to change in their experience and socialization of the world. And if you as parents, look at some of the things that we talked about where all of a sudden there's anxiety, all of a sudden this child is experiencing fear, Their sensory distortions are showing up in ways that weren't really happening before. Their sleep is off. We call all of this autism.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:30:14]:
But as Dr. Theo Horaides is teaching us, and you know, I've delved into other elements of this. This is all microglial activation. This is all nervous system immune activation that we call autism. But in reality, it's something like mold has disrupted the immune system, which is then disrupting the nervous system, which then disrupts the person's experience in relating and experiencing the world. Does that make sense?
Len Arcuri [00:30:43]:
Oh, yeah, no, I'm totally tracking you and of course, internalizing it to my son's experience. And everything you described fits him to a T. And for us, his mold exposure, and he's 18 now. And full disclosure, we're working with Dr. K in terms of really addressing that root cause of mold exposure for my son, which we've never done up until now. And you know, we, when he was born and when he was diagnosed at, you know, 18 months, and even before then we were living in a brownstone in New York where very clearly could have had mold issues there. And, and I think. But your take is while that may have set someone up, you know, when they were very young, in my son's case, it's likely that it's not exposure from 18 years ago, it's more of a recent exposure, Correct?
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:31:35]:
Well, we don't know. I mean, part of why I shared my experience is, I mean, my experience, my exposure probably happened about four years prior. And what I've certainly seen in a lot of families is once the body is exposed sufficiently, and I believe ultimately it's the gut that falls apart, once that happens, the body stays toxic itself. The gut becomes the source of inflammation, the gut becomes the source of toxicity. So I've had plenty of families where exposed for a year, year and a half, child became sick, but then they move and child stayed sick or the autistic features maybe improved a little bit. But a lot of those fundamental challenges never went away. And that's because the immune activation, all of the mechanisms that are driving it, never just because you move out, it doesn't just miraculously fix itself. Yeah.
Len Arcuri [00:32:34]:
You'd like to think the body can then, in a more pristine environment, a mold, a mold free environment, that the body would be able to purge what it needs and then course correct. Which of course the human body is amazing. It can do a lot of things. But I think what you've seen is that that doesn't happen. And that's why some kind of protocol to in a safe way, in an effective way, help with that. Detoxification is the key.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:33:01]:
Yeah, yeah. And you know, the body does do a lot. So for most people, 70, 75% of people, the body is actually detoxing and keeping them safe. Even when they're exposed to mold, it's those individuals. And I find typically it's the highly intelligent, highly sensitive kids who, who happen to be the most vulnerable, that if those kids are exposed or people are exposed sufficiently, it looks like their gut reaches this point where it just loses integrity. It just, it falls apart in a way and it no longer can manage itself. And it just goes into this vicious cycle of toxicity and inflammation and dysfunction. And that cycle, once it starts, it cannot repair itself past a certain point.
Len Arcuri [00:33:54]:
Got it. Got It. And is it safe to say that while mold is something that sure, it can impact anyone, regardless of the age, that younger children perhaps with already a compromised immune system, something of that nature, that they're more susceptible to having negative effects, particularly in the gut, than, let's say, the parents. Because a lot of times parents would think, well, I don't have any issues. Why would my son or my daughter have issues? So is that true that particularly for younger children, they're just more susceptible?
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:34:24]:
100%? Yeah. 100%. I mean, they don't have the resiliency we do as adults, their microbiome, their immune system, they're just not mature enough to handle these toxins. But what I do find often enough is while the parents are not as sick as the child, if you ask the parents, like, hey, how are you doing? Usually one of the parents is like, yeah, my brain isn't working as well as it used to. My memory's off, I feel tired, I've got these aches and pains, I've got allergies. So it's not like disaster. But there's usually one parent that's not feeling fabulous either.
Len Arcuri [00:35:01]:
Yeah, no doubt. More than likely both parents and maybe in different ways. But no, that. That's important to know. And again, our kids are more susceptible. And again, this is an important topic. And again, the work you're doing is just phenomenal. But going back to how we started this discussion, though, I think we've kind of gone a deeper dive on mold as, let's say, a root cause in this overactive immune system, how it impacts the gut and ultimately how it presents with your child, where it may manifest in behaviors and also may manifest in terms of them not responding or being like other kids.
Len Arcuri [00:35:43]:
And I know I've had several clients who especially will focus on the fact that their child's not interested in things or is not attentive to X, Y and Z. And I think that's where your perspective is, that it's not a preference and it's not your child being difficult or in some way rejecting whatever is happening or being self centered. It's just that they don't have the building blocks to have that awareness and to feel the emotions and to respond to cues like, let's just say neurotypical kids would 100%.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:36:20]:
And you know, it's. We presume that everyone's experience of reality is the same. And you know, I think one of the, one of the reasons why I was so excited to come here is we can argue that that is clearly not the case. And to your point, these children aren't trying to be difficult. These children aren't trying to resist. I mean, sometimes they're oppositional. But the experience of the world is fundamentally different. And if you were to kind of rephrase, autism.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:36:52]:
Autism is basically one's experience of the world is fundamentally different than others, right? We say, well, that's part of neurodiversity and neurodivergence. But there is something about being wired differently, which I think is the gift that all of these individuals have. But when the neurophysiology is altered because of the inflammation and toxicity, I don't know why anyone would consider that a positive thing. And I think the beauty of all of this is as we work to change that immune response in the toxicity and the mitochondrial issues and so forth, like a whole new being can show up in the world, which I tell all the families, like, that being is your true child. The true child just can't shine through, right? It's like there are curtains or layers that are hiding them, and they're overwhelmed in the world, and they're in constant states of anxiety and constant states of overthinking, and their sensory pathways are distorted. And we've kind of touched on these things before, right? The entire experience of the world and how they experience the world, they. They perceive the world. They sense the world is off and.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:38:08]:
And through that, like, who would enjoy the world? Who would be totally connected to others, who would want to go explore everything, right? And, like, one of the things that's been so fascinating in watching these kids and myself is when you ask, well, why are these kids so rigid, right? Because rigidity is a very common finding in autism. And ultimately, rigidity boils down to fear. If you're constantly fearful, that causes you to become reserved and kind of restricted and rigid. And I've seen this one in myself, but also hundreds of kids that I work with that as their inflammatory response calms down, like, the rigidity goes away. And the kid who, like, parents were fighting tooth and nail to do something, now they're like, johnny, can you go brush your teeth? Okay, sure, Mom. And then they go brush your teeth. Or, johnny, can you sit down and do your homework? Yeah, okay. You know, and they sit down and do their homework.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:39:07]:
And it's all because the neurochemistry and neurophysiology has changed, allowing that child to actually now experience the world in a different way. And that's the part, to me, that's so cool. It's like essentially installing a new operating system that allows a better, brighter, happier version, more successful version of the, you know, person to show up. And as parents, I mean, one of the things we want is all of that. Right. We want our children to thrive. And that, to me, is what's so exciting about all of this.
Len Arcuri [00:39:40]:
Yeah. No, that's amazing. And, yeah, I love the concept of a new operating system. And again, that's not just a theory. That's absolutely possible. But until then, as a parent, as you're looking at what's happening with your child, a lot of what we've touched on is about these perspective shifts. Because I know as a parent myself, a lot of what I felt towards Ryan and my daughter as well, but towards Rya especially, I was annoyed. I was annoyed, I was impatient, I was frustrated.
Len Arcuri [00:40:12]:
And so a lot of strong emotions, which there's no doubt felt lousy for me. And it definitely was something he was receiving as well. So that's where. When you can really look at what's happening with your child with more compassion, with more curiosity and acceptance of, hey, this is what's happening now. And I don't have to take it personally, and I don't have to feel, you know, that anxiety or. Or tension, which I know is something which is so common for so many parents as they're trying to help their child.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:40:44]:
Yeah. And I mean, thank you for bringing that up, because I. Yes. And a lot of families say just that, that in understanding things in this way, they feel more compassionate because now it's not, oh, my child is doing this because they're doing it. It's, oh, my child is doing this because the way they're experiencing the world is different, the way my child feels inside is different. And this isn't entirely conscious, intentional behavior. There are some elements of consciousness and intentionality always, but really, this is their nervous system and their immune system is possessing them. It's causing them to behave this.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:41:30]:
This way. And yes, thank you for touching on that. We need a lot more compassion.
Len Arcuri [00:41:36]:
Yeah. And again, parents have that in them, but sometimes it's just hard to get out of the day to day. And again, what your child's exhibiting may not be what you think it is. Right. In terms of whether it's intentional or not. And largely speaking, it's likely not intentional, even though that can be a part of it, particularly with teenagers. But no, it's just. It's that true acceptance and openness.
Len Arcuri [00:42:00]:
And that's why, again, the more a parent can actively try to put yourself in your child's body and see the world as they're seeing it, things really do shift and it usually results in some minor changes a parent can make that make all the difference.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:42:21]:
Yeah, 100%. And it just, I mean, it changes the dynamics. Right? The child now senses it. So, yeah, it just changes everything.
Len Arcuri [00:42:32]:
Fantastic. Well, again, I think your perspective is super powerful. Just like when I talk to clients about finding a practitioner, it's really, there's a lot of dynamite maps, practitioners, functional medicine practitioners who are out there. But sometimes it's helpful to have a practitioner who also maybe has a child who perhaps has these challenges as well, just for that commonality. And I think in your case, I think it's super powerful that you're a functional medicine practitioner, very skilled, and you have this perspective to help parents better understand their child. So I think you are a uniquely capable guide. And again, I'm just so excited about the work you're doing, your practice, holistic minds, as well as the substack and the information you're putting out there. I'll put it all in the show notes.
Len Arcuri [00:43:24]:
But again, thank you so much for the light you're shining for these families.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:43:28]:
Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. And at the end of the day, it's about these kids. It's about helping these families. And these kids just have a beautiful life, a happy life, a bright life, and just a future that is only better because a lot of the kids are doing pretty well. But you know, like, I never thought I was suffering. I never thought I was off that much. But like, as this, this new domain has opened up for me, I mean, the way I'm able to experience, experience, it is just so wonderful. And if, if we can help create that for more kids and more families, like, that would be, that would be a gift, truly.
Len Arcuri [00:44:14]:
Truly a gift. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your voice. And truly, I am honored, Pejman, to call you a friend. So thank you for your friendship.
Dr. Pejman Katiraei [00:44:23]:
Thank you, thank you. And thank you for just creating this space for these families to find hope and to get information that will hopefully bring about change for them and their kid.
Len Arcuri [00:44:36]:
Absolutely. Well, as you said, it's all about these kids. Thank you again. Your child wants you to transform now. And the fastest way to do that is with personalized support. To learn more, go to allinparentcoaching.com intensive.
