Episode 206 — SIBLINGS Are the Greatest Therapists
Guest: David Kartzinel • Date: May 30, 2024
Episode Overview
This week, we’re focusing on the perspective of the sibling of a child with autism. Their lives are absolutely impacted, yet their needs are often ignored or unintentionally not prioritized. Joining us is David Kartzinel, son of Dr. Jerry Kartzinel and brother to Josh, who is on the autism spectrum.
About David Kartzinel
David Kartzinel is the office manager for Kartzinel Wellness Center with 15 years of experience and the Executive Director of Home Life Community. He has spearheaded various technological changes and specializes in maximizing the practice’s efficiency.
David received his Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Studies from Union University in 2008. David grew up with autism as a part of his life since he was 13 years old when his youngest brother Joshua was diagnosed at age 2 with autism. He is passionate about helping siblings and parents understand the long-term effects of living with a special needs sibling, especially with regard to its impacts on the siblings, both negative and positive.
Now an adult sibling with children of his own, he continues to work for his father helping families with children who have autism. David brings a unique perspective that blends a very honest, realistic take with a good-natured optimism that focuses on ensuring a family learns to understand each other and work to improve and move forward together, whatever challenges the family may face.
You’ll Discover
What It’s Like Being The Sibling of a Child With Autism (3:20)
The Role of Counseling and Self-Care for Siblings (8:46)
The Impact of Autism on SIBLINGS (14:57)
Techniques To Release Trauma (26:24)
Specific Actions To Take With Your Child Who’s NOT On The Spectrum (32:34)
Why It’s Never Too Late For Open Communication (45:15)
How To Nurture Relationships In Challenging Times (52:25)
Referenced in This Episode
Full Transcript
David Kartzinel | 00:00
As I got older into my middle teens, They really supported me having significant friendships and spending significant time outside of it. And I think that is absolutely critical. Your kids, us siblings, we need a support network that's not our family. Because quite frankly, We need to get away from autism. Because we're tired of it. And I know you parents are tired of it too. It's hard. But for the siblings, when they say, mom, I really just want to go hang out with my friend, support that, encourage that. My parents did such a great job with that. And so. - Consequently, I got breaks.
Cass Arcuri | 00:42
Want to truly be the best parent you can be and help your child thrive after their autism diagnosis? This podcast is for all in parents like you who know more is possible for your child.
Len Arcuri | 00:53
- With each episode, we reveal a secret that empowers you to be the parent your child needs now, saving you time, energy, and money, and helping you focus on what truly matters most, your child.
Cass Arcuri | 01:04
- I'm Cass. - And I'm Len. - Welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets.
Len Arcuri | 01:21
Hello and welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets. It's Len, and I'm so glad you're here and listening to this episode. We've recorded over 200 episodes so far, and they're all centered on the parent and or the child on the spectrum. But today we're focusing on the perspective of the sibling of a child with autism. They're no less impacted, yet their needs are often ignored or unintentionally they're just not prioritized.
So nurturing the relationship with your child who is not on the spectrum can feel like another ball in the air that you have to juggle. And it can definitely add to the overwhelm that a parent feels. But you can meet the needs of all your children and you can tap the tremendous positive force of siblings in supporting your child on the spectrum. And with me today is David Kartzinel, who's going to shed much light on this topic. The secret this week is... "Siblings are the greatest therapists." Welcome, Fantastic.
David Kartzinel | 02:24
David. Glad to be here.
Len Arcuri | 02:27
Yes. So new topic. I'm super excited. I know I felt a lot of shame and guilt a little bit and even still do in terms of the lack of attention that I was putting. Projecting towards my daughter. All the focus was on our son. My daughter came a year and a half later. And so this is an important topic to me. And that's where I want to hand it off to you. Tell people more about who you are and what you're doing now and how you're helping parents of a child with autism, along with your father, Dr. Jerry Cartzenell, who was just on the show about a month ago. That's episode 199 for those who want to check it out. It's called Autism is Treatable. And David, his son, is here now, again, to really help us understand the perspective of the siblings.
So David, I'll hand it off to you.
David Kartzinel | 03:20
Alright, well, we'll just start with a little bit about me and how I got introduced to autism. My brother was diagnosed when I was age 13. He was two, so there's an 11 year difference between the two of us. And... I will say that I was there at ground zero. He was a disaster, nonverbal, GI issues. OCDs, like even before he was diagnosed, I remember every single night having to do pacifier hunts because he couldn't sleep without the pacifier, but something inside him drove to hide. The pacifier, you might see how this was a problem.
So like some of my early memories of Kind of becoming aware that my brother wasn't like my other brothers. There are four of us. I'm the oldest and Josh, our special needs sibling is the youngest. And so there are two more in between us.
So I'd had kind of some experience, but I remember doing pacifier hunts where we're sitting there trying to find it because otherwise it's He's going to be screaming and that's going to be A long night. For everyone. And of course, As an older sibling in particular, I wanted to help... And I see that in my own daughter, and we don't have any autism in our family, but just she wants to help. She wants to be an adult right now. Of course, I'm sitting here going, no, you don't. But so that was, I was there at ground zero and then kind of reoccurring. Walked along again as a child, though.
So as a child, your perspective is a bit different. The parents, from my perspective, You guys are trying to figure it out. You're trying to study autism. You're Googling what it is and trying to find a doctor or a therapist or something. The sibling perspective is a little bit simpler and more binary. And it kind of is, and again, this is very childish. My brother is broken. And I have to help. That's how I saw it. Mom and dad never, ever told me that, of course, they wouldn't have ever burdened me that way. But that was just kind of the mental internal realization of like, you know, Josh was going to destroy toys. Josh was going to. And unlike my other brothers who could be disciplined, you know, like if my neurotypical eight year old brother destroys one of my Lego sets, yeah, he's going to get in trouble. And mom and dad did a great job of that. But if Josh did it.
Well, buddy, you know, you shouldn't have left your Lego set out. You know, he's got autism. He can't help it. End. That's not a parenting failure. That's a very truthful statement. But then as siblings, we kind of have to process out and figure out. How this whole thing works, except the funny thing is we're not aware that we're doing it because this is our reality. We don't really know an alternative reality. And I mean, telling you guys the truth, I don't think I realized how different my growing up was until I have become an apparent myself. My kids are nine and eight now. And now I'm going.
Well. I don't have to do it that way. Or, ooh, I'm stressed about something that I do not need to be stressed about. Or just, I don't have to be so precise. I don't have to be so demanding. But, like, Josh went through a phase where he would elope, run away, if you left the door unlocked.
So you could not leave the door unlocked or Josh would be out in the neighbor's garage. There's just no, there's no option. There's no room for oops. Because if you make an oops and forget to lock the front door, Josh is gone. And I mean, gone in seconds. You would not believe how fast he could move like a ninja. I.
Len Arcuri | 07:19
Can believe it. I've seen it, but I have no doubt. It must've been, especially for what you were 13. Right.
So here you are as a, early teenager, already with a lot In terms of what that entails with a lot of rules and guidelines in terms of how to grow up. And now it sounds like you had a whole bunch of other rules of what to do, what not to do within the household.
David Kartzinel | 07:45
Absolutely. And those were and here's the thing, though, those were necessary. They're my parents didn't do anything wrong. And kind of the big hint that my parents did a great job is that I'm still speaking to both of them. And I work for my dad.
So like, we have a great relationship because and I think one of the things they really did well. They did lots of things well. But they would acknowledge that it wasn't fair. That's so critical, whether younger, older siblings... You have to acknowledge This is bad. This is sad. This is hard. And it doesn't mean you still have to deal with it. Again, like with the story I just shared, Bottom line, If I don't lock that door, I'm going to get in trouble because Josh is going to go out and that's not safe. And so I need to help with that, period. No negotiations, no ifs, ands, or buts. But to say, we know this is hard and we're sorry. And that's a conversation you're going to have many times. If you've got special food limitations, so Josh was very strictly gluten-free, dairy-free, keto free, banana free. There was a whole, like we went through different iterations of diet, trying to find what helped him. And we go through things where it's like, okay, we can't have it in the house. We just can't because Josh will get to it.
And then that will wreck the next three days. Like, I mean, I remember, I mean, one Sunday in particular, we'd gone to church and they'd given Josh goldfish. And mom was just in tears because we knew the next three days with Josh were going to be a living nightmare.
Len Arcuri | 09:23
And they were.
David Kartzinel | 09:24
Yes, and they were. And so we had to be careful. And sometimes it meant that foods that we really wanted weren't out of the house, but mom and dad would take us out to get those foods. When Josh was in really bad situations where we couldn't go to church, one of my parents would make the sacrifice and they would take turns so that the rest of us could go.
So it wasn't just a living entombment with my brother. And similarly, as I got older into my middle teens, They really supported me having significant friendships and spending significant time outside of And I think that is absolutely critical. Your kids, us siblings, we need a support network that's not our family. Because quite frankly, We need to get away from autism. Because we're tired of it. And I know you parents are tired of it too. It's hard. But for the siblings, when they say, mom, I really just want to go hang out with my friend, support that, encourage that. My parents did such a great job with that. And so. Consequently, I got breaks. I got breaks from Josh where I do an overnight with my buddy in high school and get to go live life with his family's this wonderful Italian family. He and I are still best friends to this day. We've known each other since we were 15.
So that's been a little bit. And I just get to go to his parents and see like, how they lived and not have autism be in the backdrop. And it was just such a wonderful break. And same thing with youth trips where it's just You're not on. And it was...
So wonderful to have that. And same thing for parents. Take your kid out. The other parent can stay and take turns because we want both parents to have a good relationship with the neurotypical child. And that means that you got to spend some time and sometimes some awkward time.
You know, those teenage years are a whole barrel of laughs. A lot of challenges there. I was not an easy team. I was arrogant and know-it-all and way too smart for my own good. And so I made things difficult, particularly on mom. And I'm sure somewhere in the backdrop of that, autism had something to do with it too, because that just forms the background and tapestry of your whole life. And I think kind of right along with that, parents, you can't avoid this marking the sibling's life. It is going to alter us. It is going to change us. And it is going to leave us with some quirky challenges. And there'll be challenges that crop up at what feels like to me random stages so i went through college and didn't have any issues i was having the time of my life in college sorry to disappoint i was a nerdy student i didn't go to parties i didn't do any of the crazy things you're supposed to do when you go to college i actually studied i took it real seriously i had but i had a great time anyway but i didn't have any autism related issues or stresses I was I mean, think about it guys. I went away to college.
So like I was free! Right. But, Here's the flip side. I got married at 21. And again, early marriage was great. We had no issues.
I mean, we had a really... Easy first couple of years.
And then it got to the time where my wife was thinking about wanting to have kids and up until that point, I had always thought I wanted to have kids. And suddenly I didn't. And I didn't know why. And I knew like, cause you know, we got married with the assumption that we'd have kids.
So you can't kind of do a bait and switch and be like, well, I don't want to have kids anymore. So I knew that what was going on inside me wasn't, Right? I couldn't figure out what was going on. And we were sharing with it with our church small group. And we had this wonderful Danish lady named Annette. And she just looks at me and she goes, David, do you think this is because your brother has autism? And I was like. I didn't think of that. Now, guys, I don't know why I didn't think of that. You would think that I would think of that. But that's the thing with siblings. It's the backdrop. We don't really remember what it was like.
I mean, even though autism didn't really enter until I was 13, I don't really remember what it was like to not have Josh around and have the challenges that he brought with him.
Len Arcuri | 13:56
Would you say right now looking back that diagnosis of Josh, do you look at that as a traumatic event for.
David Kartzinel | 14:04
You? No, not really, because I didn't understand it. I think that And this is a funny thing. Trauma is one of those interesting buzzwords nowadays.
Len Arcuri | 14:15
It can mean a lot of things. Yeah.
David Kartzinel | 14:17
So, I'm going to plug some different stuff here because it's been stuff that's been tremendously helpful as I've tried to understand what's going on with me because I have had some interesting challenges along the way. Bessel van der Kolk's book, The Body Keeps the Score, is fantastic. Critical for understanding that we as siblings do have a variant of post-traumatic breast disorder. But it's not like a lot of the other PTSDs, you know, like when a soldier comes home and goes, you know, my buddy got shot right next to me and I had to hold him as he died. You can go, yeah, I see. That's brutally traumatic. When you go, well, I had great parents. They loved us both. They took us to church. They took us out.
Like, I never worried about where my next meal was going to like you go down that checklist of like, did you have a traumatic childhood? It's like, not really. But then this thing with autism and yeah, you kind of did, but it's not like the other traumas. But it is a trauma, but it's almost a trauma of across the span of time. And that's why I say it's going to mark us And it does leave us with kind of some interesting PTSD-like stuff. Symptoms. And that's where you acknowledging it when something goes wrong is so critical.
So at the beginning of his book, Bessel talks about people who had PTSD from 9-11. Okay, the people who were there. And what's really fascinating is the people who had the least symptoms and didn't have issues with suicide or depression or all this stuff were the ones that went home and told their family what they saw and had their family know.
Like one of the keys towards kind of getting the trauma out of your body. And that's the funny thing is the body keeps the score.
So it's not something you're thinking about all the time, but it's something your body knows. And so you're calibrated at a higher level. Resting anxiety level than most people are. And you don't know that because this is how you grew up. And it was normal. And I can't stress this out. It was a normal adaptation to the challenge you have. There is absolutely nothing my parents could have done better.
Like I can sit here and I can look back and go, now, of course, they're not perfect. Any more than I am perfect. We are all imperfect people. And of course, now as a parent, I realize, crap, we're making it up as we go along. We have no clue what we're doing.
I mean, we read books, we talk to friends, we try to imitate the good that we've learned from our parents and from others. I have no idea. It's a little scary. But you sit there and you go, okay. This still has, I have this weird baseline in me and that's where when my kids were young, I hit kind of that next wave of weird challenges where my. Anxiety was just going through the roof over stupid stuff. I'd hear that there was a flu bug going through the church and I would be almost incapacitate is a little too strong, but I would be critically and brutally anxious, you know, stomach hurting, can't focus. Over something that I can't stress enough, my kids didn't even have. And that was when I started getting some counseling Help. Because I realized, okay, something weird is going on here because this is not a normal reaction because look, kids get sick.
I mean, you know, your parents know that I'm a newish parent. My kids are nine and seven, like I said, so still kind of getting used to this whole thing. They get sick. That's just a part of life. I got sick as a kid. The world does not end when your kid gets even something crummy like a vomit virus. It's just, you know, an unpleasant couple of days and then you get it and then it goes through the family and then you're all fine again. It's fine. And I knew that. But I couldn't get... My... Body. Under control. And I don't know if that's a common sibling experience.
Cause again, there's not too many of us out there talking about it yet. I think that'll come over time. But I suspect it is because, again, we just have this higher baseline resting anxiety because we had to do a lot of extra stuff to make sure that our brothers or sisters were safe. We're okay. And we had to be, we were more attuned to the room, to mom and dad, because, you know, regardless of whether mom and dad want it to be this way, if your brother's having a bad day, your mom and dad are having a bad day. And you have to learn to be sensitive to that as a sibling, as a child.
Like that's just, Again, that's what family should do. That's what I want to tell the parents. You aren't going to do it perfectly and that's okay. You can't because the situation itself is imperfect. I heard years ago, I was at a conference and a wonderful doctor, Larry Crabb, was talking about parenting. And he's a strong Christian. He sits there and he goes, look, guys. God was literally the perfect parent. Look at how Adam and Eve turned out. They still had challenges. They still had all these problems. And one of their kids murdered the other one.
Like it's a big, the Genesis story is kind of dark. But his point was, look guys, if this is how God's children, burned out.
Like he raised them. He made them like ground up. He said, guys... Relax. And that doesn't mean don't try to be a great parent. It doesn't mean don't get help, but it means we're not going to do it perfectly. There's a great book called up. Parenting from the inside out, the guy who wrote it is named Siegel, S-I-E-G-E-L. And he had a great thing. He's talking about it again for people with a different kind of trauma, something called attachment, which We could spend another hour on. We're not going to get into that.
Yeah, that's There's a lot there, but yeah, What he says is all you have to do is get right 50% of the time and your kid will be okay.
Len Arcuri | 20:14
A separate episode. An important concept.
David Kartzinel | 20:24
And I was so encouraged by that because I'm sitting here going, I don't want... Of course, none of us want to hurt our kids. None of all of us want the absolute best growing up experience. We want our kids to look back on their childhood with fondness, no matter what unique challenges we face along the way. And when he said only 50% of the time, not even 51%. 50. You just have to get right and pay attention to your kid 50% of the time and they'll be okay.
Like, and... Let's be honest. Most of us are going to do a lot better than 50%, even if you have a kid with autism.
So That was just take the pressure off. It doesn't mean don't be, I hate buzzwords, but don't be intentional. Do like my parents made sure that we knew that we mattered too. In this messy situation and you approach it as a family. And when your kid comes to you and says, hey, can we talk about this? At least hear them out. Because they may have, especially if you set up a family system, Where you can approach your parents and where your kids can approach you and say, hey, I'm really struggling with this. Work with them. And check in with them. Because again, when you're a kid, you see your parents as a God, right?
Like, Mom and dad, they know everything. They have it all together. Check in with them. Say, "Hey, I know this is hard and this is not ideal. Is there anything I can be doing to help you? Because they need to hear that from you. I think you'd be amazed. At the encouragement you will hear from us. Because most of the time, just those words are enough to encourage us. And we'll look back and we'll go, no. You're doing a great job. Or maybe we will have something, but then you need to hear it because here's the other thing. If you address those issues before they become a critical conflict point, Instead of having this really difficult situation, you can have a situation that you've already handled before it was a problem. That's kind of my philosophy in life in general is whenever possible, let's avoid the stupid problems. Just practical marriage stuff. If your wife always gets mad at you because you don't take out the garbage and you guys always have a fight about that.
You know how you can avoid the fight. Take out the stinking garbage.
And then there's no fight. And Whenever possible. Now, some fights, they're not avoidable. It's like, hey, we have a conflict here. We got to work through this. That's fine, too. But let's avoid the dumb ones at least. And so same thing when you're a parent, when you're raising these kids, avoid the dumb fights.
So you're going to have disagreements and conflicts with your teen. I don't think that's possible to avoid because they're going through that period where they're differentiating from the family and they have no idea what that means or what they're doing. And of course, you don't either because. They're being weird and I want my lovable little guy back. I haven't gotten to that part yet, but I hear it's not the – parenting isn't for the weak of heart.
Len Arcuri | 23:29
I can attest to that absolutely. - Absolutely, with 100% certainty.
David Kartzinel | 23:34
Yeah. Just check in and do that regularly.
I mean, I, and again, if you're forgetful, set a reminder on your phone. Make it a quarterly check-in. Just, hey, bud, how's it going? How are you doing with this? Because I think that will really, and that'll really improve the relationship in general.
I mean, heck. As I'm saying that, I'm sitting there going, man, I should do that with my own kids. You don't have to have autism to do this. Just check in. Hey. How's it going? What do you think of our family? Is there anything we might consider doing differently? That's a scary thing to ask because you might hear something you don't like. But it can build those bonds that will then let you guys survive this mutually traumatizing experience in kind of the broader scale because it's, it is an ongoing trauma. I'll hear that dad say that often. He'll say our parents wish they had PTSD. They have OTSD ongoing trauma... And as siblings, we do have the luxury of eventually we grow up and we get to leave...
And then we get to kind of figure out what that looks like. From there. Which is its own, again, weird thing. And encourage your kids as they grow Give them a heads up. You're going to need counseling. And when you do, Get a counselor who doesn't encourage you to blame your parents. Because your parents are doing the best job that they can. Doesn't mean it's perfect. Get a counselor who will help you understand how and why your family operated the way it did. And if there are things you don't want to take with you, that's okay, but not in a blaming way, in an understanding way.
Len Arcuri | 25:21
- So is your view that siblings of a child with autism, more than likely some form of counseling at some point would be something that would be beneficial?
David Kartzinel | 25:32
Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially to deal with the stuff that's going on subconsciously.
So that's where I really needed help because my body was basically heading towards being in a constant fight or flight situation or being tripped into that with just the most mild of stressors. You know, hearing about kids getting sick at church. That's a silly thing to get like severely stressed over, but I was, ultimately I found a great guy. He technically is called a life coach. His name's Adam Lane Smith. And he has helped me tremendously because he helped me not criticize the people in my life who love me and did the best they could. He helped me go, okay, this is what's going on in your Adi. And that's how we're going to manage the bodily challenges you're having.
So what that has looked like is every single day, I do muscle relaxation techniques. And it's like a 10 minute breathing exercise that he gives me of tensing muscles. But it helps lower, as crazy as that sounds, that resting baseline anxiety.
On top of that, I've gotten involved with some pretty significant physical exercise really helps you manage a lot of that stuff. I was not a kid who was into sports. Now I do judo weekly. And I do a very physical version of yoga.
So not the chanting and stretching, but like the really intense workout side of yoga. Because that really helps me keep a good, healthy, even keel. Because, yeah, sure, I get stressed, I get frustrated, you know, all the things of life. But that regular, very disciplined practice of, physical, of significant physical exertion really helps balance that resting baseline anxiety that I typically have. But you need someone who can tell you, "Hey, bud. You're going to need to do this. And it was Adam really pushing me. They got me more into the judo side of things.
And then of course he gave me the muscle relaxation techniques that I use every single day. Like I, This is just a part of my morning routine. I do that. Then I have coffee. I read my Bible, like just a very stable, calming routine. Thing. But your kids will most likely need that. And again, that's okay. And I don't blame my parents for needing that.
I mean, we can blame the universe for giving us an unfair hand or whatever, but that... But what good is that going to do? And that was one of the things I loved about the perspective that Adam made. Helped me have in life, which was This is what is. How are you going to be going forward? Because what I really was afraid of is I didn't want to kind of become... The mental equivalent of like a traumatized soldier terrifying everyone around me because I'm a powder keg.
You know, you read stories about the vets who came home before we even had the PTSD diagnosis. And how terrifying they were and not because there was anything bad about them, right? They've been through some really horrible stuff and no one even was aware that they needed help. I didn't want to be that for my kids. Adam pointed me towards, okay, the goal is to pass on the good that you receive from your family. And to absorb the things that you didn't. Again, growing up with an autistic sibling, who's at fault? No one. I don't blame. You can't blame your parents. That's silliness. It's not their fault. They too would have liked for your brother or sister to not have all of these difficulties and challenges, even though we love them as they are and they bring joy.
So much good and learning into our lives. I mean, I wouldn't be here today without Josh. I wouldn't have the job I do.
Like we've been able to do some significant. Good because of Josh, but it did have those unique challenges. But that, again, it'll be okay. But yeah, we will likely need some decent counseling.
And then I suspect, and I can't prove this one, that we will have a more intense desire to separate from the family for at least a short portion of time. And again, the easiest way to simulate that, let your kid go away to call. Or wherever. And support them if they want. Even if they're going to a local college, support them living in the dorm. Give them that break because then here's what the cool thing is. We come back. And we say, can I help?
Len Arcuri | 30:22
Well, respite is powerful, you know, not only for siblings, clearly, but for the parents as well, right? Where, you know, based on what might be happening, it's about Meeting the needs of everyone involved there, that support structure. And yeah, time away, even if it's an overnight like you mentioned.
So I think everything that you've shared, I think parents who are listening definitely appreciate easy to follow and to understand. And by the way, I love both of the books you mentioned because Bessel's book, Body Keeps the Score, the embodiment of the trauma or the energy, let's just say, that's a phenomenal read for anyone listening. And I'm going to try to get him on the podcast. But secondly, in Dan Siegel's book, The Parenting Inside Out, again, those are great resources that you're mentioning. But this idea that the, Whether it's trauma or just, you know, kind of a major event that's happened, the idea that it's physically kind of part of you, again, from a parent perspective, to understand that, which is why your self-care is so important, just like the self-care of the sibling. And it all comes down to meeting the needs of As best you can. For yourself, for your child on the spectrum, for the siblings. But I think as parents are listening to all this, they can understand it. But how do you go from understanding something to actually taking meaningful action.
So you mentioned, you know, put a reminder on your phone. That's a, powerful way to remind yourself of something because in the throes of the day-to-day, it's easy to want to meet the needs of a sibling. For day after day to pass without you taking any real meaningful action.
So what would you suggest from that perspective, other than setting a reminder on your phone for a parent to be present with that child and to have those kind of conversations that you mentioned? What would you suggest for parents to, as ways to put it into action?
David Kartzinel | 32:31
Okay. Probably the biggest one would be to have a monthly... I'll call it a date just for lack of a better term with your kid. Get them out of the house and away from their sibling with autism where you guys are just doing something fun that's just the two of you and take turns because again we want mom and dad to do this and respect the kids' wishes, you know? You want to go to mini golf? You want to go get pizza. You want to go to a movie together where Josh was hilariously disruptive during movies. But like, not in a bad way.
Like we never, again, I don't resent Josh because it's not his fault. He has autism either. I love Josh. And, but you know, Sometimes it's nice to watch a movie without Josh. But just talk to them. What would you like to do? Just the two of us, but make sure you do that monthly. And look, I get it.
Sometimes the kids have extra physical challenges where that's, really hard, a really big sacrifice, or maybe it's not even possible. I mean, I think of like one family in my practice who, when their kid is getting super aggressive and having some issues, it Dad leaving the house is simply not enough Okay, fine. Have a video game date with your kid in his room.
Like order out pizza and just forward up back there when the other one's down for the night or whatever, like just. Just something that tells us this your other kids you really matter to me and making that a monthly discipline and Because if you don't do it regularly... You're not going to do it at all. And whatever frequency you set, it's going to be less frequent than that.
So if you shoot for monthly. With reality hitting, it might end up being more like once a quarter. It's okay. The point is just to make sure that you As a parent, take the time to really see your other child. Kid without all of the challenges of autism. Even though that's, again, always a part of the backdrop. Josh is always a part of the backdrop of our family and he's a beloved part of the backdrop of our family. But to make sure that you have some time just father, daughter, just mother, daughter, just father, son, just mother, son, making sure that you really take the time to just, Have some fun together. I love board games. Play board game with your kids. If they don't like board games, play video games. If they don't like video games, listen to a CD, go to a concert, go to mini golf, like take them out to their favorite restaurant. Then this doesn't have to be high expense stuff. The point is just. Time together. Heck, if they like projects, go out to the garage and work on the car or whatever. There's so many things. Shoot hoops with them out in the front. This doesn't have to be a huge monthly outlay of expense because if you've got a kid with autism, you have a few monthly expenses.
Len Arcuri | 35:35
Potentially an overwhelming amount, but it sounds like what you're saying is it just needs to be consistent in some way. It doesn't have to be overly complicated or expensive or anything of that nature. But The key is actually when you're doing that activity, really doing it, right? To be fully present. And I think you're being charitable with the once a month, because I would imagine I would definitely want to do it more frequently than that. But what you're suggesting is it doesn't have to be every day. It can be as long as a month, as long as it's sincere, it's going with that child's interest. And so even if it's only once a month, or maybe even as you're saying once a quarter, If it's heartfelt, if it's sincere, and if you're really present, that may be all it takes, but the key is to do it on some consistent frequency.
David Kartzinel | 36:29
Yeah. And to send that message to your other children, you are more than just. Josh's brother. Or whatever your kid's name is, right? You are more than just a sibling of an autistic kid because what happens and this is a necessary thing to especially if they're severe or having particular challenges, they become for a time the center of the universe for the family. And I think that's necessary. I don't know how else you did it.
Like just, you know, taking autism out of it. If my brother was diagnosed with cancer, Like, you know, something really nasty. And they needed to go get inpatient treatment in Texas for nine months. Would anyone fault a parent removing At least just going down there and staying for nine months with their brother and kind of leaving you, say, with grandma and grandpa or one of the parents staying with you or whatever adaptation or heck, the whole family. No one would ever fault parents for making those kinds of strategic decisions with cancer.
Well, we have to make those same strategic decisions, or rather I say we. My parents... All of you parents have to make kind of similar strategic decisions. It's just not cancer, it's autism where it's like, okay, This month, our kid is a disaster. He's having some real weird new behavior issues. Whatever. Hey, buddy, this month is rough. I get that. Just letting them know Again, it sounds so campy, but like, I see you for you. You are not just a spare free set of working labor, which my parents never, ever did to me. To their credit because again, I'm 13. I can help out a lot. And I did. I did because I felt like I wanted to. , and, ,, , , , , , , , , , . And that's another maybe really critical thing. If your kid. Doesn't want to deal with it today, give them that space to not deal.
Like, and, Again, that's something to have a conversation about later when they're not escalated. If I can use the psychology terms, if they're just like, I can't deal with my sibling right That's okay, bud. You need to spend the day. Take the day off. Go, you know, go hang out in your room away from him. I get that.
Like just. Acknowledge those needs. And again, they might be expressed in weird ways. For me, it was, hey, can I go over and spend the night at Matt's house again? Sure, buddy. Let me just talk to his parents.
Like understanding that that's not avoiding it. It's just, I need a break.
Like my buddy, his parents became like a second set of parents to me. I was over there a lot and not too much by any means, but yeah, They just adopted me like an extra son. And it was truly a life-giving thing.
So when your kid has those wonderful relationships, Support them. We are not free respite care, but here's the cool thing. If you don't use us as free respite care, we'll come back and be free respite care. That's the funny thing is it's that whole thing of if you hold the bird just right. It's okay. If you hold it too tight, Squish it. This is bad, right? If you hold it too loose, it goes away.
So you want to have, you want to be a family. And that means, hey, this is a part of your life, bud. And sometimes as a family, you're going to have to make some sacrifices, even though you're not the parent. That's just how it goes. On the other hand, hey, you need a break. I respect that. I want a break too, but maybe I can't have one right now. Like my heart really goes out to my single mom families or single dad families. You guys have it so tough. Just, No breaks. And that's brutal. I can't even really comprehend that experience. I only know this from being just a sibling. But I can imagine a little bit. Just from the sibling perspective of, ugh, I can't believe he's screaming again.
Like... I remember This is funny. You're going to laugh because... Growing up, Josh had a really hard time transitioning.
So many of our family vacations were marked by him screaming. Right. Because he couldn't make that transition into the hotel room. And so what would help him transition was bath time.
So one of my parents would kind of let us in. Josh would be screaming and the other parent would be going and running the bath.
So Josh would stop screaming. And that was just normal family vacation for me. And what's really funny though, is that years and years later, my wife and I are married and we're talking about, I'm like, I realized for the first time then. That's not normal. And it just made me chuckle, though, because the flip side is growing up as a kid, it's just like, Josh is screaming. It's all right. We've got the bath thing going. He'll be fine a little bit. No big deal. It didn't cause me the same kind of stress that I can only imagine it caused my parents. Similarly, like we would go out to eat. And I remember sometimes dad would just put a stack of This is your tip. You have 20 minutes to get us our food and get us out before he starts screaming.
Len Arcuri | 41:49
That's a good technique.
David Kartzinel | 41:50
And it worked because the waitresses would take that seriously because, look, again, it's a waitress. They're busy. They're just trying to get their job done. And so they'd go, Okay, what do you want? Because we'd go in, we'd have all of our orders ready to rock.
Like we would have looked at the menu online. We go in, we sit down, here's our order, eat, go, boom. And it was just a surgical strike. And as a kid, I didn't even notice really. I was just like, okay, well, that's just how you do. That's fine. Now, once you become a parent, your kids don't have these challenges like me. It's like.
So when we eat out, we just Eat out? It's kind of fun. But again, that's given me space to come back and to say, okay, here, let me. Let me give you guys a break too. And that's, I would say, that is directly because My parents didn't overuse me. And they made sure that I was seen. They made sure that I knew I was valued as me, not just as an extra set of hands. They did such a great job with that. And Again, we couldn't do a lot sometimes. We could be pretty limited. But they still made sure that I knew I mattered. They still came... To my performances, I was in choir, like they made sure that was the case. And back then, my grandma would watch Josh so he wasn't coming and being disruptive during the performances or whatever.
So like, I remember mom and dad making a priority to not miss those. And so, and again, you guys, you can do that same thing. If your kid is in band, go to their band rehearsal. If you have to take turns, that sucks. I get it. But make that Boys make that commitment, sports games, whatever it is, because then that's sending you again, that message of this activity that you're doing. That's a way. Matters to me. You're more than just your brother's diagnosis.
Len Arcuri | 43:43
Yeah. And you can't really over-communicate that, right? That your other child is more than just a helper because it's easy to look at autism. Okay, we have an all hands on deck thing. Everyone, including siblings, this is what we're doing. And parents, I know I went to where, okay, a little bit of martyrdom, like, okay, I'm going to put everything into this. Everything else doesn't matter or is less important, which is why it's easy to ignore the needs of the other kids. It's easy to ignore your own needs and self-care. But again, here, There's an opportunity for a parent with awareness and with a commitment to actually do something about it. A lot of what you've shared really, I think, can give parents lots of ideas on how to really communicate to that other child that they truly do matter. They're more than just hired help. And I so wish that I would have done more of it because I think the mistake I made among many is I assume my daughter knew that she mattered, that she was as important. And I feel like, especially early on, I know I didn't communicate that. And made the mistake that I just assumed she knew.
So I wish I would have communicated it more. And now both my kids are teenagers and I know I'm not doing this nearly enough now, which is why this episode's gonna you know, be beneficial for me as well as anybody I think who's listening.
David Kartzinel | 45:08
Well, then I have more for you because that's the best part of what my coach, Adam Wayne Smith has taught me. It's never too late. , Even if they're an adult, I just finished reading a great book on parenting boys. And that was one of the things he was sharing. He was sharing a beautiful story of like, you know, an 80 year old father who'd done really messed up. And this wasn't with an autism. It was just a.
Honestly, a bad dad. He sat down with his son and told him at 60 something, like, you know, I love you. I'm sorry. I really messed up. And it created such a beautiful healing moment. For both of them. Where it's like, it's not too late. It's never too late to start to repair that relationship and move forward together. And if you've got younger kids... Don't be afraid, and again, in an age-appropriate way, to tell them what's going on with you. Don't be shy about saying, hey, Moms having a real hard day with this. Being a mom with an autistic kid is really hard. Because even though we don't necessarily understand what that means We've hurting. You've acknowledged that this is hard for me.
And then that kind of puts that in the framework of This is hard for me too. As opposed to just, no, I've got this all together. I'm fine. Because I think that's probably the instinct of a lot of my parents is just, I'm going to tough it out. I'm going to survive for the sake of my other kids. But that isolates you from them because They're having a hard time too. And so if we all get together as a family and say, This is hard.
You know, Little brothers had a rough time this week or big sister, whatever the sibling. This has been a rough week, man. Is there anything I can do to help you? Because that's just, again, going back to Bessel's book, acknowledging it. Is so critical for making sure it doesn't do long-term damage. It's just that baseline thing of acknowledge, hey, this is hard.
And then that frees us to grow up Without resentment because hey, this was a team thing because yeah some situations are It is an all hands on deck. Situation.
So, One time Josh was having some weird GI issues. Dad's told the story at conferences, so I think I can tell it. And unbeknownst to everyone, we had kind of a media room that had two glass doors.
And then like, and so Josh was watching a movie in there. Well, unbeknownst to all of us, because no one was in there with him because he was stimming on one of his movies and just watching it over and over again. He'd had a bowel movement and wiped it Everywhere. On himself, on the dog, on the walls. Dad comes home, it's found out mom just has had it needs a break, To his credit. Dad gave it to her. And so she got some time off and dad, you know, basically this was an all hands on deck, Dave, take the dog out. You need to hose him down.
You know, we're going to get this cleaned up. But here's the funny thing for you folks as parents. I didn't remember it. I have. No memory of that.
So that's one of those key markers of a trauma, right? Of like, my body received that as a trauma because my brain straight up erased it. When dad told that story, I was like, Don't. He's not making it up.
So I'm sure he's telling what happened. I have no memory of it.
And then I got kind of a couple of flashes where I was like, Think. I think maybe I do. All hands on deck, is it ideal? Absolutely not. No one, parent or sibling, should have to take a dog out that their brothers wipe poo all over and hose it down. And my body did receive that as a trauma. Obviously, since I blocked it. On the other hand, it's now become a funny story that I hear and smile. Because the flip side is when stuff needed to happen... The whole family came together and we got through it together. Mom needed a break because she'd been stuck with Josh. She got her break and she was able to come home and kind of re-engage. Dad needed to help and kind of take over. He did that. , " P. P. P. P. P. P. P. That was like a legitimate need because like you can't chase a German shepherd around and clean the brother up and clean the – So we all work together. And we just acknowledge, hey, that. Boy, that really sucked. Because when you do that, then it can become a funny story. Instead of like this dark horror story, it becomes something that's got almost just a comic air of like man, what a crazy thing to have to go through as a kid or as a parent. No parent should have to go through that. But.
Len Arcuri | 50:09
It's the keeping it inside, right, that could ultimately do the damage where you even, you took care of yourself so well, you blocked it out. But I'm sure even hearing your father talk about it and having that be rekindled as maybe unpleasant, as it may have been, it was a way for it not to be weighing on you at a subconscious level.
David Kartzinel | 50:29
Yeah, exactly. And it was for me, it was more surreal, because I didn't, that was the first time I realized I have memory blocks, and I probably have other ones. And again, Bessel talks about that in his book, that that's actually a normal and healthy adaption of the brain.
Like that's our brain saying, hey, you can't handle this right now. We're going to just file that in the stuff I don't need to remember file. And so we kind of Bessel kind of gets almost mystical in the book where it's like we thank it and we release it, but we go, okay. My brain said no, and it protected me. And now we tell this story and I can smile and I can talk about it and it doesn't cause me to feel any tightness or tension. Crummy feelings. It's actually just kind of a fun growing up story. And again, credit to my parents. They didn't give up. We didn't say, well, that's it. Everything's over. And I'm sure it felt that way for both of them that I can't even imagine what that's like from a parental perspective. But what they did, even in that situation, is they gave me a shield. Mom and dad have got this.
Like we're going to clean it up and we're going to get through it. And again, by then having that open conversation of boy, that was nasty. Let's not do that again. And just laughing about it together, right?
And then having it be just, A fun thing. And not because it itself was fun, but because the fun is going, hey, our family got through this together. We are stronger than we think. We're stronger than we want to be. But that's true of everything. If you do judo, especially at my age, I'm 37. Hurt after those practices. But it's so much fun. And so it can be kind of a both and where it's like these things that hurt and that are really hard can become. The glue that actually binds us together as a family unit. If we kind of acknowledge the challenge together and forward up together and go, it is all of us against these challenges, not even against, it's not against the person with autism because Josh doesn't want that either. He might be trapped, especially back then. He's doing much better now. But he might be trapped in that body that's doing these crazy things right now. But he doesn't want that.
So it's not us versus Josh. It's all of us versus this current thing. If we can do that together, then we still have room to love our brothers and to be.
So we said we're their best therapists. So what that means, We siblings are merciless.
So Josh had an OCD about lining up toys. Would you care to guess what my brothers and I love to do? You man.
Len Arcuri | 53:11
Are knocking those toys every which way but sideways.
David Kartzinel | 53:16
This is terrible. It was so much fun to just tweak one of them out of one. Just a little bit because Josh... Yes, that's me. Not a perfect brother, not a perfect person. But we will push our siblings. And here's the fun thing, because if you've given us that space, like I've been talking about, we then have room to love and interact our siblings. On the level that they can. Where it is truly no trouble for me to hang out with Josh for a few hours.
You know, watch a movie I don't really want to watch because, you know, Josh still loves Disney movies or really young stuff that, you know, I'm old. I don't really want to watch anymore. It's no trouble at all. You're... It's a pure blessing to be able to do that for your parents. To be able to say, hey, you got me through this as a kid. Now I can kind of help you as we deal with this still. As a family. And We can love on our brothers. We can protect our toys from them. We can have all of those things and go, hey, you know, you can't touch my stuff. But that's good because that teaches them, hey, there's stuff you shouldn't touch. That's a service. That's a therapy. Even if it means having a door lock on your door so you lock it so that they can't go in there.
Well, that's fine. It's fine. And pushing them.
So like for a while there, I, we would be, Josh is actually pretty verbal now. But we would be his interpreters because he would kind of do some babbling. We would have to help figure out what he was meaning and we could help our grandparents or whatever. Just And again, even just looking out for him. Hey, making sure your brother doesn't elope. Making sure that... They don't get access to the dog food or whatever there.
I mean, you know, I've, because this is my job, I've heard so many things where it's like, on one hand, Josh had some challenges, right? On the other hand, he didn't have those challenges. That sounds rough. But of course, we'll all say that, right?
Like if we all, if all of us got together and started comparing notes, all of us would be like, "Ooh, I don't like that challenge. I don't want that one. I'll take mine." but I don't want mine either. Again, that's part of it. I think that's why I love seeing parenting supporting groups.
That's why I love seeing a podcast like this. Because We all need to be able to get together and go, whoo!.
It's so freeing because, again, then we're still acknowledging, hey, this autism thing is hard.
Len Arcuri | 55:56
Yeah, no, it's that acknowledgement and that, you know, just... Providing and allowing support.
So the idea that siblings are the greatest therapist, right? Yeah, you were there to be present, to love and to guide Josh. To teach. And so it is really such a vital role. And even the role in terms of, the parents If they are present and they're meeting your needs and meeting that sibling's needs, just the parent having that communication is therapy for the parent as well.
So I think the siblings can play such a uniquely powerful role. Particularly if they're not taken for granted and ignored, which again, I think just that set that tends to happen. I think so much more than parents intend, which is why awareness and this topic is a really important one and everything that you shared.
Totally doable, totally within a parent's ability to put into action. And I really appreciate you sharing these ideas, these suggestions, these ways that parents can really be what they truly want to be, which is a great parent to all their kids.
David Kartzinel | 57:10
Absolutely. And again, I just, I want to salute the parents you guys have. A much tougher job. It is so... Hard to do... And just by sticking in, you are showing how resilient you are, how strong you guys are. Because if you stick in, if you do what you can, remember 50% of the time, get it right 50% of the time. All of us can do that. It means you get to have a bad day. All right. And heck, my wife and I have had these conversations. Today was not the best day with the kids. Let's try better tomorrow. And acknowledging that to yourself, to your kids, But you guys are the tough ones. You guys are the ones who get very minimal breaks. I see that with my parents. I've become increasingly aware of that because I'm married into a family. That doesn't have autism as part of their story. And so I get to see Again, just the silly difference.
Right? My parents. It's always mom and dad. Josh. When I'm with my in-laws is just my two in-laws. When, you know, my father-in-law wants to go take a nap, He can because, you know, if he's done his stuff for the day, he's done his stuff for the day.
Well, mom and dad, no, they don't get to do that. And They're both beautiful stories. They're both, there's nothing wrong with both. Either set from that perspective. It's just This is just life. And so we do it together. We do it with love. And I think forgiveness and grace. Grace for yourself, grace for your kids of, hey, I had a bad day today. I didn't do great. That's okay. Jesus still loves me. I still love you. I still love my kids. My kids still love me. We'll get it tomorrow. And if not tomorrow, the next day, and you just, if that's your goal, if you've got forgiveness for yourself, if you've got forgiveness for your kids, when they are just done. And I'm sure I had those days. I honestly can't think of any good stories. Maybe they're repressed. Maybe I did better than I think I did doubt it. I'm sure there were days when I was just done And My parents gave me space to be just done. And they still loved me and they understood. Because quite frankly, they're stronger than I was. And You guys don't get the luxury of being weak, but What I've seen, even some of my parents with the most challenging, they are still strong. And so just... Keep up the good work. And Make love your family principle and you'll get through it together.
Len Arcuri | 59:55
I think that's a fitting way of ending this conversation. It is all about love. And if people, though, David, want to... Really experience more of the type of support that you and your father are providing as part of the practice. Can you share a little bit about how people can find you?
David Kartzinel | 01:00:11
Yeah, sure. So our practice website is drjerryk.com, D-R-J-E-R-R-Y-K.com. Or we're on Facebook as Mending Naturally, so facebook.com slash mendingnaturally.com. And I am always happy to talk with a sibling.
Like, okay, I'm a little scared to do this because I'm afraid I'm going to get 10,000 people saying, okay, my kid wants to talk to you. So with the slight caveat of I am but one man, I have such a heart. For seeing the siblings and being able to pass on, because I've had to make this up as I've gone along kind of like you parents do of like figuring this out.
Cause like my parents were figuring out being parents and they didn't know what it was like to be a sibling. Cause how could they?
So now I'm sitting here going, Hey, I have parents. Some tips and tricks and you know, resources. And so just my emails on the website, it's just david at drjerryk.com. I'm happy to say a little more, but like... Everyone's going to have their own different experience. And so I don't want to make the false universalization of like, everyone is just like me. I imagine if you talk with my brothers, they'd all have slightly different versions of this...
So I'm not saying that every kid, every sibling is just like me, but the, I think some of those things are going to be pretty universal. And certainly the, what the parents can do will really help bless that relationship.
Len Arcuri | 01:01:48
Yeah. Now, you may not have all the answers, but you definitely have very unique and useful perspectives. You're raising your hand saying, I'm here to help.
So I appreciate you sharing that information. And again, for sharing your voice today. Thanks so much, David.
David Kartzinel | 01:02:04
Thanks, Lynn.
Cass Arcuri | 01:02:06
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