Episode 283 — Stop Guessing, Start UNLOADING
Guest: Patty Lemer • Date: November 25, 2025
Episode Overview
Patricia Lemer returns for her third appearance, bringing five decades of unmatched wisdom in understanding what’s really going on with our kids. She explains how stress accumulates, why nervous-system dysregulation is the first root cause to address, and how parents can begin unloading the burdens overwhelming their child.
About Patty Lemer
Patricia S. Lemer, M.S., M.Ed., LPC is a licensed professional counselor, educational diagnostician, and co-founder of Developmental Delay Resources. She hosts The Autism Detectives and is the author of Envisioning a Bright Future, Outsmarting Autism, and her newest book Total Load Theory, which integrates functional medicine, sensory processing, developmental vision, and lifestyle foundations.
Book: Total Load Theory (Skyhorse Publishing) or on Amazon
You’ll Discover
Why Patty Returned With A New Book (3:24)
Why Nervous-System Regulation Must Come First (6:45)
The Lifestyle Basics That Still Move the Needle Most (11:20)
What “Total Load Theory” Reveals About Hidden Stressors (17:41)
How One Family Made Big Gains By Going Back To Nature (25:30)
How Patty’s New AI Tool Helps — And Why Source Matters (29:13)
Referenced in This Episode
APS Episode 212: You Can’t Heal If You Don’t Feel Safe with Dr. Neil Nathan
APS Episode 280: We CAN Change The Neurodevelopmental Trajectory with Dr. Larry Palevsky
Full Transcript
Len Arcuri (00:32.59)
Hello and welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets. This week's guest is someone I admire deeply and I've learned so much from. She's a true pioneer in every sense of the word and someone who's spent over five decades helping families find clarity, confidence, and hope. Patricia Lemmer is a licensed professional counselor, educational diagnostician, and a longtime host of the Autism Detectives podcast.
She's also the author of two essential books, Outsmarting Autism and now Total Load Theory, Transforming Lives in Autism, ADHD, LD, SPD, and Mental Health. helps parents understand what's really going on with their child and what options exist. And her work is really about awareness, about uncovering the hidden stressors and understanding how they connect. And my work picks up right there where I'm obsessed with helping parents implement taking
the knowledge and insights from experts like Patty and turning them into consistent daily effective action. She focuses on clarity. I focus on execution. Together, that's how parents transform and get better outcomes for their child. So you're about to hear from someone whose wisdom has guided tens of thousands of families and continues to light the way forward. The secret this week is stop guessing, start unloading.
Welcome back, Patty.
Patricia Lemer (02:01.418)
And that was beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm honored to come on your podcast again.
Len Arcuri (02:08.6)
Fantastic, yeah, this is number three. So yeah, I just really know what a gift it is for parents who are listeners or clients to again, to really leverage the wisdom that you have. So I am delighted that you have felt compelled to write another book. So, you know, I always look at the book, Outsmarting Autism, that's the guide. If you want to know what those options are, why you would consider something for your child.
It's all there. So I kind of thought you stuck the landing and you were done. What prompted you to write this book right now?
Patricia Lemer (02:42.03)
Well, and I thought I was done too. And actually, this is my fourth book. You missed one. You missed Envisioning a Bright Future, which preceded Outsmarting Autism. That was my first book, but I didn't write most of it. I counted on experts to write those chapters because I wasn't confident enough to write it. It was published by the Optometric Extension Program.
Len Arcuri (02:49.568)
I did.
Patricia Lemer (03:11.126)
We won't count that one. So what happened was outsmarting autism went out of print. The publisher put it out of print after five years and I thought I was done too.
Len Arcuri (03:13.016)
Fair enough.
Patricia Lemer (03:24.716)
But the powers that be said, Patty, you have to have an active book out there. Outsmarting is the Bible. We read it every day. And so it was really Mary Holland and Children's Health Defense and who talked to Skyhorse Publishing. And we all put our heads together and Skyhorse said, yes, we'll do this book.
So I was lucky, I didn't have to look for another publisher, I didn't have to self publish and here it is. The other part of it is I wanted to reach a larger audience. My books have been about autism and autism spectrum. And you and I know that this, what I have in my book applies.
to ADHD, to learning disabilities, to sensory processing, and even to the mental health disorders like OCD and panic disorders and bipolar even. So I decided, go for it. Go for the whole world. Everybody knows somebody who has one of these diagnoses. So that's what I did.
Len Arcuri (04:44.334)
Wonderful. Well, I'm thrilled that you did because I was one of those people who I was panicked when I saw on Amazon that outsmarting autism was not available anymore because, I've talked about it before on this podcast. That is a book that I gift to every single client, every parent who I'm walking alongside. It's just such a phenomenal resource. So wonderful that now something's going to be coming out imminently. so I think with
Patricia Lemer (05:07.95)
Thank you.
Len Arcuri (05:13.46)
that in mind. And Outsmarting Autism, I know it was more of kind of a reference guide. That's why I know it's even something that was at one point available as an audio book, but you can't really listen to an audio book that has so much knowledge. What I loved about Outsmarting Autism, it was a great reference, a go-to guide. And again, so many people, including myself, have so many pages dog-eared. So it was a great reference. The new book is clearly
Patricia Lemer (05:38.222)
Thank you.
Len Arcuri (05:42.796)
you're taking it in a different direction. Can you talk about how it's different than outsmarting autism?
Patricia Lemer (05:48.302)
Well, it's different in that it has a lot of new information. As you know, things are happening really fast. And I had to revise and update outsmarting because of new information. And there's new stuff here too. The main thing I, actually the two main things I did was I had
been introduced to Dr. Neil Nathan, who wrote the Sensitive Patient's Healing Guide. And I don't know, I don't see it back there. It's hiding. There it is. And you interviewed him too. He's really phenomenal. And he, in that book, which is I think his fourth book too, he talks about
Len Arcuri (06:33.86)
he's phenomenal. He's phenomenal.
Patricia Lemer (06:45.836)
the patients of his who did all the right things and didn't get better. And he looked deeply at those cases to discover that those were patients whose nervous systems were deregulated. They had had some kind of multiple or single traumas that kept them in a fight or flight mode. And their vagus nerves were just
unregulated, dysregulated. And he convinced me easily of the necessity of addressing the nervous system first and foremost before you go into some of the other therapies. And so I took that advice and went that way in this new book in the same way that I added a lifestyle chapter
both in the updated version about smarting because I realized that if you're throwing money at occupational therapy and speech pathology and nutrition and you're still drinking Cokes and eating Twinkies and not getting enough sleep and not turning off your Wi-Fi at night, your body is in danger. And so
This book also has a lifestyle chapter, but it also has this chapter on getting to safety before you start intervening. I sure Dr. Nathan talked about that on your podcast. is a genius. And so that was one thing. The second thing I was introduced to the bioregulatory medicine institute.
And BRMI is an umbrella for a lot of the energy therapies that people don't understand. And so this has a new chapter on BRMI and how it encompasses homeopathy, trauma, the...
Patricia Lemer (09:12.844)
desensitizing the nervous system, plus plus plus, family constellations, things that go back to prior generations that are trickled down into influencing what's happening today.
Len Arcuri (09:29.774)
All right, great. No, I'm excited about that because again, as things are emerging and you're right, lots, there's a lot that's changing. And especially in this category, which I would just call like an energy category of these different modalities, which some people dismiss as nonsense, but you know, we know for our son, homeopathy literally saved his life. So we know it's not all nonsense. And some of those modalities can be extremely powerful. And it seems like that's where a lot of things are going. So I love that you're including that now, but maybe just to frame though,
at a high level, you and I, along with the entire functional medicine community, right? Everyone knows that the success plan is about addressing root causes. In addition to maybe trying to suppress or modify behaviors and symptoms, having a root cause focus is the key. So I think what prompted your shift and what Dr. Neil Nathan's all about is this idea that, yes, there may be many root causes about what's going on with your child, but
perhaps the first one to start with or the foundational one to start with is this dysregulated nervous system and this felt sense, felt lack of safety that a child or a person is feeling that that has to come first. So when you go back to smarting autism, when you talk about foundational things to do, this is kind of a root cause that needs to be addressed as part of that foundation, correct?
Patricia Lemer (10:54.306)
said very well. I couldn't have said it better. Thank you.
Len Arcuri (10:58.178)
Perfect, perfect. No, so that makes sense to me because yes, the landscape's changing. Yes, we're learning more and more every day, but the key steps, the power moves to make for a strong foundation, those really aren't changing. mean, it all goes back to the boring stuff that everyone knows, but very few people really have a great plan to implement across things like nutrition as an example.
Patricia Lemer (11:20.814)
Right. And it is boring. I'll never forget Dr. Alan Gaby, who was one of the very first doctors who I got involved with in the early 90s. he said, Patty, I know a lot about medicine and chemistry and biology. And he said, but let me tell you, the way I get
A majority of my patients well is I take them off of four white foods, milk, sugar, salt, and flour.
He said, and you eliminate those foods, you get better. You feel better, you sleep better. And he said, it's that simple and it's boring. Cause he doesn't sound very eloquent when he talks about taking you off dairy or how much ice cream does your child eat or how much salt is he getting? And
That leads to how much sleep is he getting and how much movement is he getting? Is he a slug or is he going outside because he feels well enough to climb trees? no, that's not safe. I forgot. So, you know, our kids aren't moving. They're not sleeping. They're eating the wrong things and some of the good foods may be the wrong things.
Len Arcuri (12:36.333)
Yeah.
Patricia Lemer (12:56.814)
So it is really complicated and it's individualized. And that's why I love doing the diagnostic work, why I love being an autism detective, because no two kids are alike. And I've been a card player my whole life and you have only 52 cards, that's 52 root causes. And you deal those cards.
Every time you get a different hand and every one of these kids is a different hand with different stress factors. And that's what the book enumerates are the stress factors that hit your kid. Peter Sullivan wrote, designed me a great chart that's in this book that looks at the child in the middle.
and all the different stress factors. And that's the way the book is organized by some of these stress factors come from inside of us, our own biology and our own energetic biology. What happened when our great grandparents left a foreign country and immigrated to the United States? Most of them don't do that except under duress. They don't...
pick up one day and say, wouldn't it be fun to live in the United States? It's usually a trauma, a war, a situation that forces them out of their own country. And if that hasn't been resolved biologically, emotionally, energetically, it's gonna trickle down to today's kids. And then there's the outside stressors.
The obvious ones are the air and the food and the water. But have you thought about that cell phone tower that they put on top of the church down the street? It's zapping you every day. And those cell phone towers are creeping up overnight and they're paying schools and churches to put them there. And that's money that these nonprofits can't resist because they need them to.
Patricia Lemer (15:20.662)
to make their budgets. So you can't blame them. But it's a crazy world. And we have to look at which combination of stressors are happening to your kid.
Len Arcuri (15:35.47)
Yeah. And I think that's the key where just somebody listening to you talk right now, you may be generating stress just from all the stressors that are out there to be worried about. I know it's, it's, but it's a gift because I think awareness is the key to, to, to, you know, take your hat out of the sand, out of the sand and be like, okay, I want to be aware of what really might be happening. And with more awareness, which, you know, again, it takes an intention to become more.
Patricia Lemer (15:44.238)
I'm sorry.
Len Arcuri (16:05.39)
educated and that's where again, I think your books are dynamite. But with more awareness, there's always something you can do. And it also doesn't mean that you have to go full throttle, you know, and, you know, and, you know, live off the grid or live in a bubble. It's really about understanding the stressors, figuring out what might be most relevant for your family, for your child, and taking some action to play better defense. So going back to nutrition, that doesn't mean you're going to a
You know, a hundred percent organic, gluten-free, dairy-free, soy-free diet. I mean, that causes so much stress for parents who try to go from where they are to something, you know, super clean. That's not necessarily the best move. It's about steps in the right direction. And again, I think as you take these foundational measures to basically play better defense, to create an environment where some, your child can thrive, you'll start seeing the impact of those actions.
and that will give you the fuel to keep going. But it's not about having to address everything perfectly, because again, that could just feel like an incredible weight.
Patricia Lemer (17:13.208)
Good point.
Len Arcuri (17:15.02)
So yeah, as long as we're talking about load and the title of this discussion, right? So stop guessing, start unloading. When you talk about that term, and I know your book dives into this, but can you talk a little bit about load, particularly like cumulative load versus acute load of what somebody may be experiencing. Load can take many different forms. So do you mind expanding on that a bit?
Patricia Lemer (17:41.08)
Well, total load theory is an engineering term that refers to why a bridge collapses. And I think people can understand that because it's very concrete. Pittsburgh has more bridges where I live than any place in the world, I think, at least in the country. We have over 400 bridges and these bridges are all in disrepair.
Almost every year one collapses. And we're so surprised. No, we haven't painted the bridge. We haven't inspected the bridge. We haven't done anything to the bridge in 30 years. But wow, why did it all of a sudden collapse? Because an overloaded truck went over it and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. And that's what happens with our bodies is little things.
like too many rounds of antibiotics, that fifth round of antibiotics, that last booster from the vaccine, that egg salad sandwich on top of three glasses of milk that the child isn't digesting well could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. And each one of these things may not cause symptoms.
but the body is responding and trying to alleviate the inflammation or whatever issue is going on. And we may not have a symptom. are no red lights went on. And the red lights that our body turns on of a fever, of redness, of itching, of vomiting, of diarrhea,
Those are all red flags that have become part of normal. it's okay if your child spikes a fever after his booster shot. Every child does that. Redness at the site of injection. of course, that's fine. It'll go away. But what happens is we're taught and we need sometimes out of convenience to suppress these.
Patricia Lemer (20:04.862)
symptoms that are warning signs and we suppress them with Tylenol and creams and fever reducers of all kinds because we have to go to work and our kid has to go to school and we hate to see our kid in distress. So when we have a distressed kid who has a fever we want to help. We feel helpless.
Watching that kid suffer isn't a good option for a mommy or a daddy. We want to do something. But the best thing to do sometimes is to wait. And that's where knowledge is important. How long do you wait? You don't want to kill your child. So you have to have good intuition and trust it. You have to have a doctor.
in the wings when you need him or her. And it's important to know when the body is able to take care of healing and when the overload is just too much and you need to intervene.
Len Arcuri (21:20.608)
Understood. Yep. Just a couple of weeks ago, Dr. Larry Pilevsky was on the show and he kind of has a guide in terms of how to help parents know when to have patients, when to take action. And I think what you just shared really underscores that for any parent, you know, having a medical advisor, somebody who's on your team, your main advisor, whether that's a functional medicine type pediatrician, whether it's an integrated pediatrician or a MAPS practitioner,
Patricia Lemer (21:25.315)
Right.
Len Arcuri (21:48.12)
having a trusted guide is really, really key. And your book has so much information, but again, in addition, having someone who can be that advisor and play that role on your team with you as the decision maker is definitely really key. And just like every child's unique, every parent's unique in terms of what practitioner would be a fit.
Patricia Lemer (22:09.048)
Right, and Larry Pilewski's been out there not quite as long as I have, but I've known him for 30 years. I've also had him on my podcast and he's great. He's just great and he's sensible. And he wants you to trust your intuition and to be educated and not just be, as you say, guessing.
He wants you to know what's going on and when to interface and interact with the child.
Len Arcuri (22:43.406)
Absolutely. Yep. Nope. So it's a dynamite guide. again, there's this, you know, the key is having resources available to help you become more knowledgeable about what's going on and having a good team around you that you carefully select and curate who gets to be on the team. And it may not be the pediatrician down the road or someone who you hear great things about. It's, you know, really discerning who's a fit for me and my child and my values. And that's where
What's great is there's a lot more practitioners who are now available. Whereas if you rewind 10, 20, 30 years ago, there weren't many practitioners who were skilled at really kind of meeting a child's unique needs, which is really required when you have a child on the spectrum.
Patricia Lemer (23:30.53)
That's such a good point. And what makes it easier now is all this technology. So people like Dr. Christian Bogner, and autism is biomedical. He's available even if you're not his patient, because he and Alex Akaris have a once a week.
Len Arcuri (23:48.675)
Mm-hmm.
Patricia Lemer (23:56.578)
Podcasts where you could just ask questions or what? think it's a webinar not a podcast where where you can call in and ask a question and the answer would Will help you but it'll also help a lot of other people because we're all dealing with the same junk out there
Len Arcuri (23:59.33)
Yeah, anyway.
Len Arcuri (24:16.994)
we are and we're all looking for answers and looking for guidance, which kind of brings us to another thing that's really different, particularly since the last time you were on this show, is that now AI is here, everyone's using it, leveraging it in so many different ways. And it is in many ways extremely scary, but it's also in many ways extremely exciting in terms of how it can help you with getting more information. But again, any...
AI tool or any information source is only as good as the source data. for a parent navigating trying to find answers for their child, it may seem tempting to say, what does chat GPT say? But that can be extremely dangerous and sending you an incredible number of non-directions that are going to be useful for you. So, knowing when to use AI and when not to, again, if you're abdicating your decision-making to whether it's a practitioner or
an AI tool, that's never a great strategy. with that as a backdrop, I know part of your book, you are finding a way to disseminate the information that you've accumulated in a more cutting edge way. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Patricia Lemer (25:30.926)
Well, I was astounded to discover that there was a dad, an Egyptian dad who had immigrated to Australia right before his son was diagnosed with autism at age three. And he attended an autism conference online where he learned about outsmarting autism. And he bought the E version of it.
And it was overwhelming to him, his English wasn't good enough to understand it. And so he put it aside for a year, but he got the understanding that you had to go back to old fashioned ways and you had to eat good food and you had to move and you had to sleep well and get off the grid. So he took his kid to the ocean for a year and he, he,
loved him and he put him in nature and he ran him around and he fed him good food and he then had good enough English to read the book. And to make a long story short, his kid today is 11 and healed and he attributes his healing to my book and he followed everything that I said.
Len Arcuri (26:54.296)
Later.
Patricia Lemer (26:58.772)
And the way I found out about him was here is this 11 year old holding up outsmarting and with his cute little British accent tells you it's the most comprehensive book there is to read if your child was diagnosed. the son is now interviewing people and reviewing books on Facebook. it's...
Len Arcuri (27:25.368)
Thank
Patricia Lemer (27:27.576)
called the Optimal Parent is the nonprofit that he founded. And when I discovered him, he told me that he wanted to give back to me. He wanted to give me a gift. And so he...
took my manuscript from Altsmarting right after it had been put out of print and he transcribed over a hundred Autism Detective podcasts and he threw them into a universe of Patricia Lemmer intellectual property and you can now search that for of the old book.
And just like chat GPT, you can ask it a question and I answer your question. And then he also puts you into two of the podcasts which have answers to your question. And he offered to do this for total load theory book. So he has
developing and when it comes out on November 25th, hopefully it'll be ready for you to ask my new book a question. And there'll be a way for you to do that. It's in the book when you buy it. the doodoo doodoo science fiction part is that I have a very complicated setup for recording five hours of my voice.
So he will clone my voice to answer your question in my voice. Which is, I can't wait to hear that.
Len Arcuri (29:13.888)
That will be very, very cool. No, so I'm super excited for that. And yeah, and this episode is going to be released on Thanksgiving. So two days after your book is released. So yeah, everyone will be able to access that tool by the book, which I highly recommend. And I'm excited to play around with that. And again, just to kind of put an exclamation point on it, what you put into your tool, Patty, what you make available to people,
Patricia Lemer (29:29.774)
Thank you.
Len Arcuri (29:43.416)
people have a question about something that's happening with their child, the answer that you will get in Patty's tool will be wildly different than if you put it in some other platform. So I think that's the key where for some things, yes, a generic AI tool could be great just to get quick static information, but in this case, what's available, what your options are, what's related to, what symptoms are related to, what root causes all those connections, you can't...
rely on just a generic search. So that's where again, what the source of that information is really important. So yes, that makes your book even more exciting in terms of what's going to be available for parents.
Patricia Lemer (30:26.25)
It is, it is. And I'm just thrilled to have that option and I'm very grateful to him for doing that for me.
Len Arcuri (30:35.724)
Wonderful. All well, I think in terms of what you're trying to achieve with this new book and putting it in parents' hands after they buy the book and maybe use your tools, is there anything top of mind that comes to you of what would be their biggest two or three power moves to make as they're just trying to take work from wherever they are and whatever they're currently doing for their child?
Where would you say the key areas are to focus on or where to start? And I'm sure it's in the book, but if you could recount it now, what are the key next steps for a parent generically? Knowing that everyone's different, but what comes to mind?
Patricia Lemer (31:16.93)
I think it goes back to the episode that you and I did on sequencing, that sequence matters and look at what they're eating, how much sleep they're getting and how to improve the bedroom as a sleep sanctuary, movement. And if you've done those things, what haven't you looked at in terms of nervous system deregulation?
What are some of the things that could have deregulated this child's nervous system? It could be anything from a move, from a traumatic school experience. It could go back to your parents, into a past generation, something that you didn't consider. And look at the chapter on nervous system dysregulation and
what you can do that you haven't done to make things move more quickly.
Len Arcuri (32:16.504)
Super, I think that's very sound advice. And again, if you take that kind of curiosity and look at it that way, there is always something that you can do now. Even if you've been at this for a while, there's always more. And it doesn't mean necessarily spending more. Sometimes the biggest moves have no cost associated with it. But I think you'd agree, right? Pretty much everything that's gonna help your child is gonna be at least somewhat inconvenient.
And so to be able to embrace that and know that doing things differently is actually a good thing and actually may pave the way for faster progress, greater connection within the family. There's so many benefits of embracing and convenience.
Patricia Lemer (32:57.39)
There are. And the other thing is you and I got to know each other through the autism world. And I'm pretty well known in the autism world, but I'm reaching out into these other worlds. And to look at some of the organizations that say that bipolar disorder, OCD, LD, are
lifelong disabilities and we can't do anything about them. Perhaps they think they're genetic. Perhaps they think that they're going down the wrong track to remediate them. And I was very heartened by a new group of psychiatrists who are calling themselves metabolic psychiatrists. And these are
Doctors who have recognized that drugs and counseling are insufficient to help their patients. They haven't asked about what they're eating. They haven't asked about how much sleep they're getting. And they're starting to do that. And the miracle of metabolic psychiatry has become the ketogenic diet. Well, I've known about that diet for over 30 years.
because I was a 30 years, 50 years, because I was fortunate enough to work with a neurologist who used it to stop seizures. And that's what it was discovered for. And so how many families in the mental health arena are aware of these metabolic psychiatrists that are changing lives by adding fat?
and oodles of fat and good fat to their patient's diet with remarkable results. And I have several ways of doing this in the book. I have a whole chapter on different diets. I have a whole chapter on the gut and why fat is important. And fat is not a three-letter dirty word.
Patricia Lemer (35:14.6)
It is essential to our brain, which is made up of fat and it's not made up of Crisco. It has to have good quality, essential three fatty acids. And so this is a whole new world of an approach to mental health that is showing enormous promise. And I want to be able to talk to those people too.
Len Arcuri (35:42.574)
Wonderful. I share that with you and I think that was so eloquently put. And that's why even calling you an autism expert or even this podcast, Autism Parenting Secrets, doesn't do it justice because this isn't about, you know, having interventions for autism. This is about what can you do to address these root causes, these stressors that may manifest itself in very different labels, perhaps, or even if your child doesn't have a diagnosis.
If they're being held back, if they're not functioning and progressing as well as they could, there's something that's holding them back. And a lot of it does come down to these more environmental stressors and also about really prioritizing that foundation that you talk about. So that's why I think there's a lot of great insights in your book. And I'm excited that you decided to put pen to paper again. Uh, and there's no doubt I will be inviting you on down the road, but I wish you tremendous success.
Patricia Lemer (36:34.722)
Thank you.
Len Arcuri (36:40.62)
with the book, hope it reaches many, many people. And again, for anyone listening, this is a resource that in my opinion, isn't optional. Invest in this, check out Patty's tool. There's not many guides I think that would be universally helpful for any parent, regardless of the situation. And that's why I'm so excited you decided to take some time away from your schedule to share your insights with our audience. So thank you so much, Patty.
Patricia Lemer (37:09.784)
Thank you, Lynn. as a last word, it's never too late. No matter how old your child is, it's never too late. We can always make progress. And there's a lot in this book on adulthood. And that is a whole other podcast.
Len Arcuri (37:29.614)
It is, but I'll echo that sentiment. It is never too late. And that's just not a nice thing to say. Truly, there's so much that you can do if not to help that adult or that child or that adult. There's so much you can do to create so much more connection and joy within the family, whatever that might be happening. So I think there's a lot of moves that a parent can make. A parent has much more power.
then I think we're told that we have or we may sense that we have. But a lot of it is having those insights that really make a difference. So again, I thank you for putting that out now and for what you've done over these decades helping families. So again, thank you so much.
Patricia Lemer (38:14.358)
and thank you for what you do. We work together to give people hope.
