Episode 212 — You Can’t Heal If You Don’t Feel SAFE
Guest: Dr. Neil Nathan • Date: July 11, 2024
Episode Overview
If your child’s healing has stalled despite endless treatments, this episode reveals why.
Dr. Neil Nathan, renowned physician and author of The Sensitive Patient’s Healing Guide, joins Len to explain why feeling safe is the foundation for all healing — especially for sensitive children.
They discuss the biology of safety, the role of the nervous system, and why pushing detox or treatment too fast can backfire. Parents learn how to create an environment — internal and external — that calms, regulates, and allows true recovery to begin.
About Dr. Neil Nathan
Dr. Neil Nathan, MD, is a board-certified family physician with over 50 years of experience in integrative and environmental medicine.
He is the author of multiple books, including Toxic and The Sensitive Patient’s Healing Guide.
Dr. Nathan is internationally recognized for helping highly sensitive patients heal from mold, Lyme, and complex chronic illness through gentle, stepwise approaches that prioritize nervous system regulation.
You’ll Discover
Why feeling unsafe blocks every healing pathway. (3:42)
The biggest mistake parents make with sensitive children. (8:26)
How the vagus nerve and limbic system determine healing capacity. (14:51)
Signs your child’s body is in “danger mode.” (18:39)
How to create safety through environment, pacing, and energy. (26:12)
The spiritual aspect of sensitivity and the gift within it. (33:18)
Referenced in This Episode
The Sensitive Patient’s Healing Guide by Dr. Neil Nathan
DNRS (Dynamic Neural Retraining System)
Gupta Program
Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP)
Full Transcript
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:00:00]:
It's all about safety, which is the foundation is limbic vagal mass cell. When you have a child who is highly reactive, you can do all of the right things. You may not be able to give them the antibiotics they need to treat the Lyme. You may not be able to give them the binders or antifungals to treat the mold until they are safer. You can't fool these nervous systems about whether they're safe or not. You can't say, say, oh dear, you're safe, you're safe. The owner of that nervous system decides and they're the only one who decides, is this really safe for me or not? So again, safety is key for moving forward in any treatment that you're wanting to try. It will be infinitely more successful if they are safer.
Cass Arcuri [00:00:52]:
Want to truly be the best parent you can be and help your child thrive after their autism diagnosis? This podcast is for all in parents like you who know more is possible for your child.
Len Arcuri [00:01:03]:
With each episode, we reveal a secret that empowers you to be the parent your child needs now, saving you time, energy and money and helping you focus on what truly matters most.
Len Arcuri [00:01:13]:
Your child.
Cass Arcuri [00:01:14]:
I'm Cass.
Len Arcuri [00:01:15]:
And I'm Len.
Cass Arcuri [00:01:16]:
Welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets.
Len Arcuri [00:01:30]:
Hello and welcome to Autism Parenting Secrets. It's Len and it's my honor to welcome today's guest. Dr. Neil Nathan is a distinguished family physician with over five decades of medical practice. He's dedicated his career to bridging the gap between conventional and alternative medicine, focusing on complex chronic conditions. His seminal works, including On Hope in Healing and Toxic, provide crucial insights for both patients and healthcare professionals, challenging the conventional boundaries of diagnosis and treatment. Today, Dr. Nathan continues to push the frontiers of medicine with his latest book, the Sensitive Patient's Healing Guide, offering hope and new methodologies for those hypersensitive to their environment.
Len Arcuri [00:02:17]:
It's a groundbreaking discussion of the biochemistry and neurophysiology of how patients have become sensitized to chemicals, food, light, sound and emfs. And it explains how to effectively treat this sensitivity. With contributions from 20 other guest authors, I am thrilled that Dr. Nathan is here to share his profound insights on transforming the challenges of chronic illness into opportunities for healing and growth. The secret this week is you can't.
Len Arcuri [00:02:51]:
Heal if you don't feel safe. Welcome, Dr. Nathan.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:02:55]:
Thanks for having me.
Len Arcuri [00:02:56]:
Well, I am super excited for this conversation only because we've had some dynamite.
Len Arcuri [00:03:01]:
Guests on our show over the last three years, and so many of them.
Len Arcuri [00:03:05]:
Attribute their learning, their knowledge, their passion for helping these kids to your guidance and mentorship. So I'm just so excited our audience gets to hear your voice.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:03:16]:
Great. No pressure.
Len Arcuri [00:03:18]:
None at all. So, clearly this podcast is for parents, particularly parents of a child on the spectrum, which from my standpoint, is a uniquely challenging journey. But generally speaking for that audience, people who have maybe just received a diagnosis might be early in the journey. Given your decades of perspective, experience, and your unique perspective, it's. Is there any kind of top line message that you would want them to really understand earlier in the process of finding answers for their child?
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:03:51]:
The first message I would give is that integrative or functional medicine has answers that conventional medicine does not. And so if your child is seeing, I will call them a conventional pediatrician, they may not be aware of an entire field of knowledge that has helped thousands and thousands of kids on the spectrum to get well, some to become more functional and some to really be able to live a normal, healthy life. And so the information we're going to be talking about today isn't entirely well known. It should be. It should be standard pediatric training for any physician. But unfortunately, for some reason, the universe has gotten polarized between integrative medicine and, quote, conventional medicine. And that is not in the best interest of patients, unfortunately, because it's the integrative world that has become interested in the autism spectrum from the beginning and has offered answers for decades now that conventional medicine has. Forgive me.
Len Arcuri [00:05:06]:
Yep.
Len Arcuri [00:05:06]:
No, I think that's profound. And I think you could have probably made that exact same statement 10 years ago. And my guess is it's maybe somewhat better now, but it hasn't made the strides that one would have expected, unfortunately.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:05:20]:
True. It's just fascinating to me that medicine moves very slowly. It oozes into the future. It does not embrace new information the way it embraces new technology. And because those have economic impact, those get streamlined and pushed to the front of the line in terms of what we learn or how we learn it. But new information or new concepts are much more difficult to acquire. Now, all of science, not just medicine, is in this particular category, which it just takes scientists forever to embrace a new concept and go, oh, I guess I have to let go of that old way of looking at it. Even though we know that we're going to have to do that somewhere along the line.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:06:14]:
You know, when we start medical school, the lecture that every medical student gets in every medical school in the country is, you need to learn what we're teaching you, and 50% of it will be wrong in 20 years. We don't know which 50%. So you're going to have to learn it all now. The interesting thing to me is when I heard that that meant, okay, I'm going to have to have a lifelong of learning because I'm going to have to keep learning what isn't true or isn't accurate anymore. And, okay, that's the adventure. Many of my colleagues who went to medical school went, okay, I better hope that whatever I learn will last me through my career, because I don't really have the energy to keep learning that way. And so, unfortunately, most physicians don't share, I'll call it my passion for learning. I mean, to me, it's like, well, this is fun learning new stuff.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:07:17]:
It's not a burden. It's like, wow, I can keep improving my overall concept of how the world is and how we can help people with it. But unfortunately, that is not the rule in physicians these days. It's gotten worse with the advent of managed care and HMOs. Many physicians are working under the gun, having to see patients every seven minutes, which isn't enough to do any good for almost anybody. And they're all about productivity. Their records get scrutinized. They have to spend two hours after they leave the office getting their electronic medical records squared away properly.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:08:06]:
And so we're seeing an epidemic of burnout in physicians. They just are exhausted. They don't like what they're doing anymore. They don't like how they're doing it. They don't like being told how to do it. There isn't any room for or energy or time for creativity or learning. So, I mean, forgive me, but the medical system we're working with now is kind of broken, and we really need to get it fixed. And it's not going to get fixed by the institutions that currently exist.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:08:40]:
They're making money doing what they're doing, and that's all that they're interested in. Sorry, but the spiritual aspects of being a physician, being able to help people, are taking a backseat to other people's needs or desires. And we just. It needs to be from grassroots that people go, this is not acceptable anymore. It's not acceptable that my insurance doesn't pay for the kind of care I and my child need. We need to have a new system.
Len Arcuri [00:09:13]:
That's so well said. And I think going back to how you started, it seems like that quality, aside from passion, that you had, is curiosity, which now it's easy to kind of judge other practitioners for not having curiosity. But the reality is the entire system punishes curiosity right because you don't have enough time to be curious. And even if you do step outside of the standard of care, that's not okay in so many ways. So, yeah, it seems like that curiosity is that key quality that especially when we talk to parents, that's what we. One of the many things we try to guide them with is you want a practitioner who wants to learn, to grow, who is curious about what's going on with your child, as opposed to many other practitioners who do not have that intention or objective and they'd rather just kind of tell you what to do and move on. And, you know, we tell people to run away from people like that.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:10:14]:
Yeah, we don't live in a one size fits all world. And that's especially true of the autistic spectrum. It's like there's just so many different forms that comes in. It's not like it's one thing. And you can put an algorithm to place and go, okay, we do this, this, and this, and then good things will happen. And every human being is genetically and biochemically unique. And so we have to approach them from that perspective.
Len Arcuri [00:10:41]:
But just that comment that you just made, which sounds so obvious to me, having been at this with my wife Cass for 16 years, and you having taught this and lived this for decades.
Len Arcuri [00:10:52]:
And decades, but that concept isn't widely understood.
Len Arcuri [00:10:56]:
And I know there's many people who, like, like I was early on thought autism was kind of quote unquote, a disease. Oh, my child has this autism. And that's what's driving these behaviors and these symptoms and the like. So I had to be educated that that's not the way it works, it's just a label. And that every child is wildly, uniquely different. And that's, that's the art of helping your child, is to meet them where they uniquely are, which will likely be very different than other parents and other children. So it's maddening to know it's so unique to a particular individual.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:11:33]:
But that's the reality of it. I mean, a lot of folks like to work with Dr. Google and, or go into chat rooms and go, oh, okay, that worked for my kid. Surely that will work for me. Or worse, the people in the chat room were going, it worked for my kids, so it will work for you as well. You're coming to this from the wrong perspective. Like, well, maybe that's true, maybe that would work for your kid. But it dishonors the uniqueness of all of us as human beings.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:12:11]:
And more people get disappointed and frustrated by following the directions of other people. Well, okay, it worked for me. It should work for you. Forgive me, it. That's silly. It doesn't apply to human beings as I know them.
Len Arcuri [00:12:26]:
But those people going to those chat rooms and those parents early on are defaulting into that mindset that says, just tell me what to do. Like, in other words, I don't want to be curious. I don't want to try to figure out my child's unique needs. I just need some doctor or some person in a Facebook group. What worked for you? Let me just do that. Because, like, just becoming curious takes energy.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:12:52]:
Worse, the people who have not had success often use these as a place to vent. And so there's a tremendous amount of negativity in these groups that doesn't represent the totality of the experience of folks who have had to deal with this. The people who have done well, they don't have the time or interest inventing because they don't have to. So it's a very skewed population from the get go. And I hope people who enter these chat rooms understand that you're not getting a balanced perspective on how all of us out there are operating.
Len Arcuri [00:13:36]:
No, that's beautifully said because I never enjoyed going to a lot of those forums and was for that reason. I always felt worse afterwards than I did when I started. And it doesn't mean that people had bad intentions, but it is a place to vent. And there's a lot of heavy emotions.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:13:51]:
With autism, so they're radiating negativity and it's hard, not as a human being, to receive it. Even if that is merely being written. It's not as this is. It's not a zoom. It's not more connected, but you can pick up that negativity in that form and it just then spews out and makes more negativity. So give me. That's not a good source of information.
Len Arcuri [00:14:20]:
No doubt, no doubt. And just like the title of your most recent book, in terms of a sensitive patient, these kids on the spectrum tend to be much more sensitive in many ways. Parents of those children as well. And I think, as you would probably say, you know, sensitive patients. That's not a minority.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:14:38]:
Correct? It's not a minority. And I think kids on the spectrum are more sensitive by definition. It's how their nervous system is wired. They're wired to be more sensitive. So, yes.
Len Arcuri [00:14:55]:
Yep. And your latest book again, dives into some of the big reasons why that may be the case. Some potential root causes and some approaches and some practices modalities that could definitely help. And I thought it was just really so comprehensive in terms of the different aspects that you included in that one book. And I know you had some help with some dynamite co authors. So again, I'd encourage anyone. That book is quite the education. It kind of crystallizes a lot of what I know my wife and I have Learned over last 16 years going to conferences, seeking out the powerful perspectives which aren't usually the conventional doctors.
Len Arcuri [00:15:35]:
And so appreciate you putting us all in one volume.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:15:40]:
Thanks. I came up with the idea a couple of years ago and I didn't want it to be my book. I wanted to be a book of experts all in the field, so that when people read the book, they weren't just getting one human being's opinion, they were getting a consensus from the people in the field who really, or top of the line, knew what they were doing. And so when I came up with this idea, I've been doing this for a long time and I have a phenomenal blessing that these people are my friends, all of them. So I literally, I think it was around Christmas or New Year's a few years ago that I came up with this idea because I didn't think anything like this existed. And I literally wrote an email to 20 people and said, hey, I've got this idea. I'd like to put this together. Would you like to participate and share your expertise? And to my shock, every single one said, sure.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:16:43]:
So it was like, oh, wow, I guess I have to do this.
Len Arcuri [00:16:49]:
I would say it's probably not a shock that people said yes, because again, you are so revered and respected. Again, you've been at this for a long, long time. It's now becoming known. Right? At least there's a little bit more visibility. But you've been at this and talking about a lot of these issues well before it became trendy.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:17:09]:
Very long before it became trendy, yeah. So again, I was thrilled. It actually was the most difficult book I've had to write because when you have this many experts, it's like herding cats. And then you want them to write each chapter in a particular way. And everybody writes their own way. So I wanted them to speak in their own voice, but I wanted it to be as clear as possible. And trying to orchestrate this was much trickier than I had envisioned. Just literally, just herding cats.
Len Arcuri [00:17:53]:
Absolutely. But powerful to have all those cats under one roof. And so again, as a really useful reference, as a useful way of getting educated and seeing things very, very differently, it's Dynamite. So I think again, this is a.
Len Arcuri [00:18:08]:
Book that for anyone listening, think of.
Len Arcuri [00:18:11]:
This book in two ways. One, for your child, yes, it may reveal some aspects of looking at health and wellness that could be really useful for what might be going on with your child. But even more so especially for yourself, for your own self care. Because again, so much of the autism journey can be really challenging. Parents battle with lots of strong emotions, depression, there's a lot of things that happen. I know for me there was a lot of shame and guilt that was worked in there. And so from that standpoint, I think one thing that you had mentioned within that book, talking about how a lot of the issues that we may think are psychological, right, that's something that's happening are really not. And they're really more neurological and cellular.
Len Arcuri [00:19:00]:
So can you expand on that concept of just looking at what's really going on and therefore what might be at the root of what either a parent's exhibiting and experiencing or what a child may be exhibiting?
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:19:13]:
I think both are experiencing it, but in different ways from the child's perspective. Virtually every child on the spectrum has some degree of increased excitability, irritability, sensitivity. All of those words I think apply of their nervous system. But it will vary as we're talking about from one child to another. So all of the senses are involved here. Sensitivity to light, sound, touch, taste, food, chemicals, EMFs, any, all will affect almost every child on the spectrum to a certain degree. Obviously some are exquisitely sound sensitive, but the slightest sound or kind of music really is so jangling to their nervous system that they will go into a freakout of various types and they may get tics of different kinds or something. But it's their, it's how their body is responding to that.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:20:26]:
And for some people it's light and for some people it's chemicals or smells or food or whatever. But the key thing here is we have a nervous system that is on edge. And the basic concept of on edge means it doesn't feel safe. This is all about safety. So from the time now this applies to all human beings from the time we are in our mother's uterus to throughout the entire life up to wherever we are right at this moment. Our two parts of our nervous system, the limbic system and the vagal nerve system, have been trying to keep us safe by scrutinizing the stimuli in our environment for safety. And we'll talk about them separately. The limbic system.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:21:17]:
Let's start with that. It's the part of your Brain that is again, monitoring everything for safety. So if your mother was going through some difficult experiences and her neurochemistry was altered, that affects the, the child that's growing within her. Depending on how the delivery went, depending on the genes that you got from both parents, that would partly relate to this. If you had ear infections or throat infections and got antibiotics, the limbic system is going, huh? Not such a safe world out here. I better be on guard. I better start protecting you a little better. Depending on how your parents treated you, whether there is some form of abuse of any type or neglect of any type.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:22:07]:
Again, there's stress, infections, surgeries, whatever it is that you got exposed to. None of us have had perfect childhoods. I don't believe such a thing exists on this planet. And so our nervous systems have had to deal with that. And it's a protective mechanism. They're not trying to mess with us, they're trying to go, this is not a safe environment. So you need to do whatever it takes to get safe. And that may evolve, doing certain behaviors or things that allow you to isolate yourself or be safer in order to function in this world properly.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:22:47]:
So that's happening for the child, it's also happening for the parent that their nervous systems have been affected by their experience up to date and that their limbic systems are also wired that way. Now, if you bring a child on the spectrum into a family, that is a very complicated, stressful experience for everyone involved. And that means that the limbic system is still up. Like, okay, is that a safe sound? Is the visions that I'm seeing safe? Am I smelling anything that is not safe for me? So our limbic system is supposed to keep us safe, and it does. At the risk of becoming hypersensitive or hyper reactive or hypervigilant to stimuli. Now when that happens, it will try to protect us. This is not psychological, this is neurological. It will try to protect us by alerting us to the fact that I am not in a safe place, I am being threatened by something, I am in danger.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:24:00]:
And it will do that by giving us symptoms. And the limbic system particularly will give symptoms in two different arenas. Number one is sensitivity. So all of the sensitivities we're talking about is limbic. So by definition, all autistic children have a fired up limbic system. There's no question about will also cause emotional issues because there's a direct link between the limbic system and our emotions. So anxiety, depression, ocd, adhd, depersonalization, derealization, outbursts, of anger, you name it. Also limbic.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:24:47]:
So you can see that the prototypical autistic child, if there is one, is clearly limbically challenged from the get go. So the limbic system is a part of that process. With the limbic system we have what's called the vagal nerve system, which is a different part of the brain and it gives us different symptoms, but it is also wired into. So both the limbic and vagal systems, although they're different parts of the brain, they neurologically interconnect very profoundly and they're working together to check out those stimuli, are they safe? So on the vagal side, the vagus nerve controls the autonomic nervous system, so it controls heart rate, temperature regulation or dysregulation. And the vagus nerve controls intestinal motility throughout the entire intestinal tract. So any symptom that involves nausea, vomiting, reflux, diarrhea, constipation, abdominal pain, that's vagal. So you can begin to see very quickly how relevant the vagal and limbic systems are to an autistic child. And it affects the parents as well, which is when a child is having a tantrum or having tics or behaving in an acting out way that cannot help but cause stress on the parent's part.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:26:23]:
Like how do I cope with that, how do I keep my child safe? That's my job as a parent. And my kid is hitting their head against the wall or they're doing things with their body that is not safe, how do I keep them safe? And in that process you can begin to see that the parent's safety is happening effect upon as well. So they're not safe either. So we have a whole family unit affected limbically and vagally. Now here's the good news. We can treat the limbic and vagal systems. Now we now understand this. Now this is fairly new information.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:27:03]:
I think we've learned all of this in the last 20 years. 30 years ago we didn't know anything about this stuff at all. We do now. So now this is my take home message for everyone. Everything I'm talking about now is treatable. So that's a quick overview.
Len Arcuri [00:27:24]:
I was just pausing for that mic drop because that's an incredibly powerful statement, very uplifting and empowering statement because it does come down to hope. And whereas nobody really wants false hope, the reality is there is so much promise in terms of what we know now that we didn't before. And as you said, a lot of different ways that we can impact positively both of those systems, again, for the parent and the child, Because I think the parent especially, it's different if your child has, let's say, some other disease where people around you and society in general will kind of be supportive and help you and be kind. But autism is so unique in that those behaviors not only trigger the parent, but other people around. And that's what makes it even a more particularly heavy journey for parents, is the judgment they're receiving from everyone around them. So, again, whatever they can do to get their system in place and in a more regulated fashion, that has to come first before they can really, truly be helpful to their child.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:28:31]:
As you said for yourself, you felt shame about, you know, like, is this my fault? Did I give the wrong genes to my kid? Like, we have any control about that, right? But am I not handling this right? Am I not somehow intuiting or figuring out what my child needs? And I'm not giving them what they need. So it can't help but make an aware parent question themselves, their spouse, blame each other, like, oh, you're not handling this well, or, no, you're not handling this well. But it all escalates. If you understand that all of this has to do with restoring safety within the family system, then it becomes clearer. So let's take this to the next level. So at some point, we may talk about mast cell activation, but let's stick with this for now. The limbic and vagal dysfunction is triggered by a number of medical conditions. And so, yes, we can treat limbic and vagal dysfunction, but it's even more profound if we find the root cause of what is actually setting off the limbic and vagal system.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:30:06]:
There is what I will call the straw that breaks the camel's back. So you can have someone whose limbic system has been wrestling with. I don't think I'm very safe in this environment, Be it a child or a parent. And then the straw that breaks the camel's back is something that puts the immune system out of whack. Something. It's usually an inflammatory condition of some sort, but it could be for the child. The most common ones, which don't get a lot of attention are mold toxicity and lyme disease. Any number of viral infections.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:30:44]:
A vaccination of some type can trigger it. I know that's controversial in the medical world, in conventional pediatrics, oh, no. Vaccines have never statistically been shown to do that. But every one of us has seen multiple kids who were perfectly okay developing normally, get a vaccination, and boom, that's not a normal child anymore. So you can tell me that statistically that, you know, it doesn't apply. But in my 50 years of medical practice, I've seen way too many, which is they were normal, vaccinated, boom, not happening. So you cannot tell me that it doesn't affect certain people. And by the way, there's some new research being done right now by Bob Navio, who is one of the brilliant minds working in the autism condition in which he is showing that they've just completed a study, I don't think it's published yet, don't even know if I'm allowed to talk about that yet.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:31:51]:
But in which they've taken kids who did not get autism from vaccinations and did and looked at their complete biochemistry profile. Dr. Navier does metabolomics, where he'll measure 600 different metabolic, biochemical pieces of the puzzle. And in the kids who have got, who reacted to the vaccines, their ability to handle that stressor was markedly different than the kids who, who blew it off. Yep, I got my vaccines, I'm fine. No problem. There is a difference, and it's important that we begin to study this more as Dr. Navio is doing, so that we can begin to understand that this is a biochemical difference.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:32:44]:
And I would say that the difference is that's the straw that triggered the reaction here. Now, that straw could be Covid, which it has been for many, many people, either the vaccine or the infection or inflammation caused by it itself. But again, emphasize Lyme disease and mold toxicity are two of the most common triggers that can often make a profound difference in the autistic community if we look for it, diagnose it and treat it. And it sets off other biochemical perturbations which are well known to be common in the community. For example, food allergy, for example, methylation dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction. The chronic candida, which is in a sense a form of mold, are super common in the autistic community. In the early days of my practice, I realized in very simplistic terms that if I was able to treat candida, treat heavy metal toxicity, treat food allergy and methylation, a lot of children would respond to just those modalities and get markedly improved. So we understood this is nothing psychological about this, this is a biochemical neurological condition, which, and I'm talking 30 plus years ago, we were able at that point to help a lot of these kids by understanding some of this chemistry.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:34:25]:
Again. My mentors back then were Sid Baker, who one of my heroes, one of the Most delightful people I've ever had the privilege of hanging out with. He taught me a lot about it. But we built on that back then. Didn't know about Lyme, didn't know about mold, didn't know about other things that we do know about now. So again, my take home message to all of you out there is if you have not looked for mold toxicity, if you have not looked for Lyme disease as a possibility, they are treatable. And if you can remove the inflammatory process that they create from the child's system, they can be profoundly better.
Len Arcuri [00:35:11]:
And those two that you mentioned, I think one reason why, if it's on a parent's radar, that's an accomplishment in and of itself. But those two in particular can be really tricky to find the right practitioner with the right approach. And we had a protege of you who I know learn from you directly about mold, Dr. Pejman Khattarai. We did an episode with him on mold and it was dynamite because he really walked it and put it in simple terms. And so it's a bit challenging. But as you said, there's absolutely things you can do to understand whether that's an issue, how big of an issue, and what you can do to help everyone in your house move to a better place. But again, it really entails finding that right practitioner to work with.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:35:57]:
Pejman's terrific, fabulous mind, lovely human being. I love working with him. I was not a pediatrician, I was a family doctor. Pejman is, he specializes in that. And I realize he gives me credit for opening up his eyes to the presence of mold toxicity as a key player here, but once he embraced it, he's off to the races.
Len Arcuri [00:36:27]:
Yeah, no, his mind won't stop churning to find more and more ways of helping families. And so that's mold. And we can have an entire episode on mold. Super important. But then Lyme as well, similarly is something where a more conventional practitioner may not really know much about it, may just order a basic Lyme test that may not tell you that much. So again, those two are very much overlooked still. And it does come down to having that right practitioner who really has a deep well of experience to be able to help you.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:37:03]:
Yeah, you kind of have to study these things. These are complicated illnesses. They're not where you can read a blurb and something, okay, I know how to treat Lyme, I know how to diagnose. Has gotten easier and more accurate to diagnose it and measure it than it used to be. That is for sure. But these Are all fields in progress? Works in progress, if you will. We know enough now that we can help the vast majority of people who have these illnesses, but we don't have everything we need. We.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:37:44]:
We need more funding for it. And although both mold toxicity and Lyme are epidemic in this country, the CDC and the NIH are not putting almost any resources to looking at it all. So it's. We still have to bring mainstream medicine into the fold so that they realize or recognize. Yeah, these are big problems. We need to get you all some more information so we know how to do this optimally.
Len Arcuri [00:38:16]:
And perhaps a key message for both of those that I think I'd love to have understand your take on it is that whereas some people may think, okay, mold exposure, in terms of it being something that impacts health, it may be there, but it's very rare. Same thing with Lyme disease. Okay, maybe a few people may contact and have Lyme, but generally speaking, that's not relevant. So I think.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:38:41]:
Would you agree.
Len Arcuri [00:38:42]:
I'm sure you would say that the prevalence of those two, not as the cause, but as a contributing cause to a lot of what people are wrestling with, is much higher than we think.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:38:54]:
It's estimated now that at least 10 million Americans currently have mold toxicity. So rare. Nope. It's also recognized by the cdc, and this is revised information this year that there are 675,000 new cases of Lyme every year. So we're talking millions and millions of people in this country have Lyme disease, and most of them don't know it. So we're not talking about a rare condition which. Okay, this is some abstract information discussion that only relates to a handful of human beings. This is super common.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:39:34]:
And part of the reason that we also need to look at it is you can acquire Lyme disease or mold toxicity while you're in your mother's uterus. A fetus can get it. So again, with no blame at all, some of these kids have this, and so do the parents, either not knowingly or knowingly. So not only should the child be evaluated for these things, but if they have them, the parent should be evaluated as well. Parents are living in the same house that the child is. So if they're being exposed to mold, it will be no surprise that this is an issue. And if the parent has mold toxicity, it profoundly affects the limbic system directly. So not only is the child being more irritated and more agitated by the mold toxin, but so are the parents.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:40:28]:
So we have a whole family system in which everyone is a little bit on edge and not coping properly and not able to relax and their nervous system is wired. And that's not a recipe for everyone getting along. However, it's treatable so we can measure it. A simple urine test is all we need to do to be able to measure the presence of mold toxin in the body and we can treat it. So this is a plea to not just the child, but to the families that do look for mold toxicity and do look for Lyme disease. And yes, you're absolutely right. Not everybody knows what they're doing in this field.
Len Arcuri [00:41:13]:
That's right, yeah. So you can right now name a test and do all that. But basically the key is there are mycotoxin tests available, mainly urine tests. But again, the right practitioner will know which ones and how to interpret those results.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:41:29]:
Yeah, and I could be specific about it. There's a number of urine mycotoxin tests on the market. The one that most experts believe is the most accurate is real time. So yes, you can get other tests, but the real time test has been shown to be more accurate and more reproducible on follow up testing than anything else currently on the market. So, I mean, there are doctors that do other tests which do show it, but try to do the best. And I have a mentorship group of physicians in which I have over 200 physicians that Jill Christa, who is a wonderful naturopathic physician and I teach together, I love the teaching because we're combining the naturopathic and the more conventional medical approach so that people, both physicians and patients, have more options about how to treat. There isn't just one right way to do it, there's multiple ways to do it. So I poll my group, so I have over 200 physicians that we can all ask or agree on or get consensus on what's the best test out there.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:42:44]:
So when I say that I have no financial connection to anything I'm ever going to be talking about, this is a consensus of all of us that this is the best test on the market in the Lyme world. Hygienics appears to be the most accurate test that we currently have access to. And they have some newer tests which are more accurate and more comprehensive than what we've had before. And so it's called the immunoblot. So the immunoblot for Lyme and for Bornella is way more accurate than what we've had previously. Still not perfect, but way more accurate than what you might get from Quest or LabCorp. I can go into the details of why they're more accurate. But this is the basics.
Len Arcuri [00:43:35]:
Yeah, no, I think those are fantastic. To point people in the right direction. And again, if you're a parent, you can't just go to your conventional medicine doctor and say, I want those tests. They'll just bring you to Quest or LabCorp of anywhere you can.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:43:49]:
But they may or may not respond properly.
Len Arcuri [00:43:53]:
Yes, that's right. You can do anything you want.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:43:56]:
You can ask for it. I always tell just ask my mother. One of her favorite lines was all they could say is, no, it's true.
Len Arcuri [00:44:06]:
But if you have a practitioner who's actually curious, going back to how we started, yeah, it may lead somewhere.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:44:12]:
But otherwise, on the other hand, most doctors who haven't studied Lyme don't know how to read these tests correctly so that you could get a Nigenix immunoblot test back. It's a little complicated. And if you don't know what you're looking at and if you don't know what you're looking for, you may not correctly realize that, yeah, there's Lyme here. So again, it would be really helpful for people if they could find someone to work with who knew what they were doing. A place to start for some of you is I do have on my website. My website is very simply neilnathanmd.com I do have a listing of practitioners that I have trained so that any of them would be an excellent place to start for where to go for care. Some people literally all over the country are listed there. It's not comprehensive.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:45:18]:
There are some people I've trained who are so busy that they have a closed practice. They're not listed there. So there's some other really good people that are available.
Len Arcuri [00:45:28]:
I appreciate you sharing that. I'll definitely include that in the show notes. And my guess is that there's going to be some overlap with your list where we often point people to the Medical Academy of Pediatric Special Needs maps, where these are more biomedical functional medicine doctors who focus on kids. So my guess is definitely some of the names that you recommend may also be those types of practitioners as well.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:45:52]:
Yeah, they would. The MAPS group is excellent. I've lectured with them. They're a wonderful group of people and that is again, a great place to start. Many of them, but not all, are aware of mold and Lyme. And I know that Pejman has lectured to them and I've lectured to them, but it's a good starting point.
Len Arcuri [00:46:17]:
All right, great. And then just continuing with that point about having a practitioner who can Interpret those results correctly. It's similar with something like an organic acids test that you can order from. It used to be Great Plains, now it's mosaic. But that could be a really useful test for a variety of reasons. But again, if you don't know how to look at it and what to focus on, what to ignore, it's not as simple as that report is going to come back and tell you exactly what to do. You need somebody with the right perspective to help guide you with what the right decisions are based on that report.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:46:53]:
Exactly. I know that Kurt Waller does a lot of teaching about the interpretation of the test. He's tried to teach healthcare practitioners how to do it. And I know that Kurt does a lot of work with the autistic community as well.
Len Arcuri [00:47:08]:
Absolutely. All right, well, I know you kind of framed those two systems, right? The limbic system, the vagal system, and how they're both super important. You want to dive into the third system?
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:47:20]:
Okay, so the third system is mast cell activation. It's not neurological. It's cellular. Mast cells are a type of immune cells which are a bridge between the immune system and the nervous system. And they are present in every tissue of the body, but they're especially present in the interfaces with the outside world and our body. Because they're an immune cell, they're trying to protect us from threats that are coming into our body. So they're more common in the sinuses, throat, and gastrointestinal tract, because that's the interface between the world and our immune system. Mast cells can become activated, and activated means hyperreactive to stimuli.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:48:13]:
And they're very complicated because mast cells can release hundreds of biochemical mediators into the environment when they are stimulated and triggered and set off, histamine being a main one. But almost all of those mediators will create an inflammatory process so that if you have mold toxicity or Lyme disease, you're adding a whole layer of inflammation to an already inflamed system. And the mast cells by themselves can trigger all of these hyperreactivities in virtually every system of the body. So a tip off would be if somebody has a symptom immediately after eating, sometimes while chewing, while just beginning, if it's an immediate reaction. That's not food allergy. Looks like it. But it's not food allergy. That's mast cell activation.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:49:09]:
And it can trigger as itching, hives, palpitations, anxiety, abdominal pain, sweating, cognitive impairment, and many more. But if you have a child who gets worse immediately after eating something, I'm talking within 15, 20 minutes. Think Mast cell activation. I know the natural inclination because a lot of these kids also have food allergies. That doesn't mean that they're not having those. But mast cell activation is different in that it can be confusing because the child may eat one food one day and not react at all, and then the next day react very strongly to it. And you're going, that doesn't make sense, because you're thinking, food allergy, if it was food allergy, should be a consistent reaction. But mast cell activation fluctuates.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:50:06]:
For example, in mold toxicity, fluctuating levels of mold toxin in the body will create a more reactive system one day than another. So we have. And here's the good news. We have multiple things we can give anybody who has developed mast cell activation to quiet the mast cells and take that whole layer of inflammation off of their system. And here's the key point. Mast cell activation, limbic dysfunction, vagal nerve function are all completely interconnected. Each sets off the other. Each is connected to the other.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:50:47]:
So that you need to treat all three in someone who's become sensitive. And when you do, you can see profound changes in a relatively short period of time.
Len Arcuri [00:50:59]:
Right. But that key point being that unless you're addressing all three at the same time, you're capping or limiting perhaps, what benefits you might see.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:51:09]:
Yeah, exactly. True. So if you have a limbic and vagal system that are both hypervigilant and you only do limbic retraining, then you may still not get any weight because you're still hypervigilant. You have to treat both in order for the system to settle down. So I call limbic, vagal, and mast cell issues the trifecta sensitivity. There are other things, and my book is filled with other pieces of the puzzle about how that works. But there are other issues that maybe need to look at as well. But those are the three biggies.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:51:46]:
Those are the ones that are absolutely the first to be looked at. Depending on how someone is able to respond to those, we may have to look deeper into what else could be triggering these sensitivities. And everything we're going to be talking about is still treatable, right?
Len Arcuri [00:52:06]:
Yeah. No, but that's a powerful approach, though, to think that those three in concert all need to be addressed. There's interdependencies across all of them. I think, as you've said, it's all tri. Directional. It's all going back and forth. So it kind of violates the concept of going low and slow. And doing one thing at a time, where in this case this is kind of the exception, where if you really want to get the benefits, looking at all three.
Len Arcuri [00:52:31]:
And again, not throwing the book and doing 20 things at once, but at least in some way addressing all three is the key.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:52:40]:
Right. With a sensitive person, you do not want to do 20 things at once. Going low and slow is the way, but it has to be comprehensively low and slow, if that makes sense.
Len Arcuri [00:52:56]:
Yeah, it does make sense to me. And again, your book has a lot of the details and again, I encourage parents to go out there and dive into it. But high level, can you just talk about a few examples of what a parent might do, particularly let's say, for their child to regulate the limbic system to promote better vagal tone and to kind of ward off mast cell activation.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:53:25]:
So let's take them separately. On the limbic side, most of the systems to quiet the limbic system were not formulated for kids. They're really based for adults. So for the. For the parents, fabulous. There's a program called Primal Trust by Kathleen King. And then there's the time honored programs by Annie Hopper of dynamic neural retraining DNRs and Ashok Gupta amygdala retraining programs. Those three are the ones that are in most common use depending on the age of the child.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:54:10]:
Any teenager can do any of these. So anyone age 12 and up could do any of these programs. Some kids can do some limbic retraining if they did it with a parent. And the one system that I think lends itself to that is the Annie Hopper DNRs program. The first part of that program is the only part that I would do with a child, but it involves saying certain words and phrases, using certain gestures and movements repeatedly. Each of these she calls rounds. So if a parent will do a round with the child, over time, the child will get the hang of it. They'll be able to do that again depending on their age and capabilities on their own.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:55:05]:
Or the parent can do that with the child. And actually it's probably beneficial for both. So that's the one system from littler kids that might work for that. There's a terrific modality called frequency specific microcurrent which has a program called the vagus nerve on it. And there is a limbic component to it. Now that can be done on even the littlest of children. So that is very definitely an option. Great.
Len Arcuri [00:55:39]:
And I think you said that one is something that is the only thing that can actually address both the limbic and the vagal.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:55:46]:
Correct. Right, I did. And they have a separate program for mast cell activation and some other programs which are great. I love frequency specific microcurrent. And yes, we can do it. Even with little kids, they don't have to participate. They can just wear the electrodes and run the program. You can even put it in their bath.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:56:06]:
So it's a very doable type of a program for children. There's some new devices called vagal nerve stimulators which I'm excited about. Again, depending on how sensitive the patient is, some of the more powerful vagal stimulators are probably not appropriate for the really sensitive children, that they would overstimulate them almost instantly. The gentlest program that I know of is Apollo Neuro, which is a band like a watch that you can wear and you can program it with your phone. And the programs that work the best are calm and unwind. And they do have a very good program for sleep as well, which is appropriate for a whole lot of kids.
Len Arcuri [00:57:03]:
That's great. I was just actually at a biohacking conference three weeks ago and I saw a presentation on Apollo Neuro and I was very intrigued, except I didn't like the EMF component of it, not having measured it. But if you're only wearing it for a short amount of time, that shouldn't be an issue.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:57:18]:
And that's the key. You don't follow the instructions that come with the device, which is to wear it for five to eight hours a day. Absolutely blows people out of the water. Do not do that. But I would start a really sensitive child on one minute once a day and then slowly bump it up from there. If you had a less sensitive kid, you might start at 3 minutes, 5 minutes. If you only did 10 minutes once a day or twice a day, that would be more than sufficient to really help a lot of children's nervous systems get rebooted. So that's one of my favorites.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:57:57]:
Another, again, it depends. If a child is sensitive to light and sound, that will take some of these ways of rebooting the vagus off the map because that will make most kids worse because they're overstimulating the system. There is one system developed by Stephen Porges called Safe and Sound, which was designed for autistic children. That again, you can modify the sound and make it fit the child. And there's a lot of data to show that that's a very nice system to settle down the autonomic nervous system.
Len Arcuri [00:58:37]:
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. One, because we did that with our son. And that's the one we also suggest for parents to consider because especially if you go back a few years, that was really the only thing therapy out there that was really targeting the vagus nerve. And Dr. Porges work obviously is seminal in terms of the understanding of how this all works.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:58:59]:
Yeah, absolutely. Steve Porges work is terrific. I wrote a chapter with him on his work and the book. And by the way, he has a new book out that is really accessible. Steve is a researcher and is an academic so that a lot of the things that he's written aren't as accessible as they might be. But he's a smart enough guy to know that. So he got his son, who's a world class journalist, to write this book with him and it's called Our Polyvagal World. And it's terrific clear understanding of what the Vegas system is, what it does, and why it is so important to quiet it down in the world we live in.
Dr. Neil Nathan [00:59:50]:
So terrific book, highly recommend that.
Len Arcuri [00:59:54]:
Oh, that's great. No, I'm going to be doing everything I can to get him on the podcast as well because I think again, his perspective would be very powerful.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:00:01]:
I think Steve would be a great guest. There's another medical device which I really like, which is called the lens, capital L, capital E, capital N, capital S. And if you Google the lens comma, brain mapping, you can find practitioners all over the country trained doing it. It's a brain mapping device. It has no needles at all. You wear a Velcro band around the head with some clips on your ears and it measures the brain waves in 21 different parts of the brain. And what it's looking for are areas of the brain that are electrically underperfused in which the brain waves aren't operating normally. And it puts a homeopathic electrical signal in to reboot it.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:00:54]:
It's great for kids with autism, for adhd. And you can literally see the effect of it. Like you can see how that signal affects the brain and you can literally watch these brain waves improve over time. So again, it doesn't require cooperation from the child. So it's a great, it's a great way to do this rebooting process well.
Len Arcuri [01:01:20]:
And I know that stands for the lens, stands for low energy neurofeedback system. So is it truly neurofeedback? It's just a more accessible way of doing neurofeedback.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:01:30]:
It is a neurofeedback in which unlike other kinds of neurofeedback, where you can do brainwave biofeedback, where you can be aware of it and you can use your mind to try it and settle it. This one, you simply put the electrical signal in and the feedback comes automatically from the brainwaves themselves. In other words, the device is the feedback. The child doesn't have to cooperate, they don't have to partake of it. And so other types of neurobio feedback are possible with older kids. With littler kids, they just couldn't do it.
Len Arcuri [01:02:07]:
Yep. And just generally, neurofeedback as a modality is not for a real young person. They need to be older. And what we always suggest to parents is like, that could be a great modality, but not if some of the more foundational things aren't in place first, like clean air, clean water, clean food, diet. If that's all in place, the odds of neurofeedback being beneficial go way up. And I think what you've highlighted in this conversation is the fact that there's these three systems that if those are out of whack, then it's unlikely that your child's going to respond to a lot of these other positive things you may be doing, wondering why they're not having more of an impact. If those systems are out of whack, then it's very unlikely that you're going to see the progress that you're hoping for.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:02:54]:
It's all about safety, which is the foundation is limbic vagal mass cell. When you have a child who is highly reactive, you can do all of the right things. You may not be able to give them the antibiotics they need to treat the Lyme. You may not be able to give them the binders or antifungals to treat the mold until they are safer. You can't fool these nervous systems about whether they're safe or not. You can't say, oh dear, you're safe, you're safe. The owner of that nervous system decides. They're the only one who decides, is this really safe for me or not? So again, safety is key for moving forward in any treatment that you're wanting to try.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:03:45]:
It will be infinitely more successful if they are safer.
Len Arcuri [01:03:49]:
I think that's a fantastic concept to end this conversation on. And you can even apply it to you, the parent who's listening, where if you're not feeling safe, it's going to be really hard for you to be that calming present force that your child really needs now. So again, I think this concept of safety applies to your child. It applies to you as a parent and as this discussion has highlighted, there's lots of things you can do today to take action to improve all of it. But again, it starts with the right perspective, which is why your books dynamite all your books and the right practitioner. So thanks for being able to have some practitioners on your website that people can look at.
Len Arcuri [01:04:37]:
Do you see patients directly anymore or.
Len Arcuri [01:04:39]:
Are you focused more only on mentoring?
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:04:42]:
I retired about three years ago, but I partly retired to teach more and so mentoring is a part of that. But I also do consultations with the patient and their treating physician and the goal being to pay it forward so that by doing that I can not only help the patient, but help the treating physician to understand how to approach this particular case in more detail. So I do a lot of consultation work. Folks can get that through the website, but I do it with a treating physician who is capable of playing ball with me. Meaning if I have a pediatrician who is by the book insists on bundling their vaccines, that wouldn't be someone we we could have a conversation with. But if anyone is open at all to learning what I'd like to share with them, then I do have that consultation service available also.
Len Arcuri [01:05:53]:
That's fantastic.
Len Arcuri [01:05:54]:
Yeah.
Len Arcuri [01:05:54]:
And I can just personally attest to finding that right perspective from that right person can be totally game changing. So great to know that that's available. And the only thing I'm upset about is there are so many topics I wanted to cover with you today, particularly about EMFs, which we've done a lot of episodes and this one talk about something that doesn't get the attention in terms of parents actually taking action on. That's one I think is very rich with perspectives and things that parents can do something about it.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:06:25]:
I have two chapters on EMF in my new book. EMF is a big Deal. It's very real. The more sensitive someone is, the more likely that EMF is a contributing feature. So if you have a child who appears to be reacting to EMFs like if they can't play video games for a long time without becoming somewhat stirred up in some particular way, if they then it's super important to get an EMF meter so that you can figure out what you and your child is being exposed to and then block that effect by getting, there are ways of blocking all these devices to get way, way less material. There's a great book by Nicholas Pineau called the Non tinfoil guide to EMFs. Nicholas is a French Canadian with a snarky sense of humor, but his book lays out all of these ways you can shield these devices to minimize the EMF exposure. So again, thank you for emphasizing that as another important thing you can do something about to minimize the type of stimuli in a child's environment to make them less reactive.
Len Arcuri [01:07:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. Now, Nick's been on the show, Nick's been at this for a while, people like Peter Sullivan as well. And so especially with our coach, when we work one on one with parents, again, that's one that they can immediately take actions to play better defense. You can't go to zero, but you can minimize the exposure and the load. And especially for these kids, it's crazy how often their bedroom, their pillow is situated in a very high EMF field, whether it's radio frequencies or electric fields or even dirty electricity. It's crazy to me how often that is something that's an immediate stressor on the child. And when the parent does a few simple things, the behaviors get better. The child's feeling much more, you know, comfortable in their skin.
Len Arcuri [01:08:38]:
So it's a huge stressor that just most parents aren't aware of, which is why it is a super important topic. So, yeah, if you're up for it down the road, would love to have a deep dive conversation on that at some point. But in the meantime, parents, people can go to your book because you have some dynamite chapters on that topic along with many, many others. Awesome. Well, again, thank you so much for taking the time to share your perspectives. And again, Dr. Nathan, really just so appreciate all that you've done, the path that you paved for so many practitioners who are walking in your footsteps. And I'm just again, delighted that everyone gets to hear your voice today.
Len Arcuri [01:09:11]:
So thank you so much.
Dr. Neil Nathan [01:09:13]:
Thanks for having me.
Cass Arcuri [01:09:15]:
Want to discover your top autism parenting blind spot? Take our free quiz today. Go to allinparent.com go.
